Down 160 BI's in 60K hands; Ready to Turn it Around

Last night it was a disaster. It confirms that tilt is a b..ch! Although, I knew it was wrong , although verneer had instructed me how to play, I was playing exactly te opposite. The biggest loses came with bluffing on the river with air.
Let's have a look at some of these hands:
1)Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($10.69)
BB ($25)
UTG ($33.32)
Hero ($30.06)
CO ($25.68)
BTN ($15)

Dealt to Hero 8♦ 7♦

UTG raises to $1, Hero calls $1, fold, fold, SB calls $0.90, fold

FLOP ($3.25) T♣ Q♣ 9♠

SB checks, UTG bets $2.32, Hero calls $2.32, SB folds

TURN ($7.89) T♣ Q♣ 9♠ 2♥

UTG bets $5.64, Hero calls $5.64

RIVER ($19.17) T♣ Q♣ 9♠ 2♥ 3♥

UTG checks, Hero bets $21.10 (AI), UTG calls $21.10

UTG shows Q♦ K♦
(Pre 66%, Flop 82.3%, Turn 90.9%)

Hero shows 8♦ 7♦
(Pre 34%, Flop 17.7%, Turn 9.1%)

UTG wins $59.37

UTG is unknown. Let's suppose that preflop is more or less OK. On the flop and on the turn, I don't get enough pot odds to call with my OESD, but I'm thinking of implied odds, although a J gives a lot of reverse implied odds. But in any case is just a mistake.
The disaster comes on the river. When he villain checks, I'm thinking "I've got him!. I' ll represent my straight and he will fold his second pair or his busted draw!! Let's do it!!" ... and I shove...

2)Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($27.41)
BB ($22.60)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($25)
UTG+2 ($8.17)
CO ($53.25)
Hero ($25)

Dealt to Hero A♣ T♣

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1, SB raises to $3.20, fold, Hero calls $2.20

FLOP ($6.65) 6♥ 8♣ 2♣

SB bets $4.44, Hero calls $4.44

TURN ($15.53) 6♥ 8♣ 2♣ 2♠

SB bets $19.77 (AI), Hero calls $17.36 (AI)

RIVER ($50.25) 6♥ 8♣ 2♣ 2♠ 6♠

Hero shows A♣ T♣
(Pre 13%, Flop 37.3%, Turn 20.5%)

SB shows A♥ A♦
(Pre 87%, Flop 62.7%, Turn 79.5%)

SB wins $48.25

SB is 19/16 LAG with 6% 3bet from SB. When he raise preflop, I suppose that he defends his blind.I put him on 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQ, KQ. Against this range I get 39% equity, which is enough to call his raise. On the flop, I don't have the right odds to call but... "let's try it!!!!" On the turn when he pushes I'm thinking :"Why he does this? He tries to make me fold!!! If he had a strong hand, he would make a reasonable bet, to call it. Probably he is on a draw... But I am on the nuts draw. So, Let's call because I've understood his bluff!!!"...

3)This is one of my best!!!
Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
Hero ($66.19)
BB ($26.61)
UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($26.02)
UTG+2 ($25.29)
MP1 ($24.90)
MP2 ($25)
CO ($9.65)
BTN ($7.40)

Dealt to Hero 9♥ K♥

fold, fold, fold, fold, MP2 raises to $0.75, fold, fold, Hero raises to $2, fold, MP2 calls $1.25

FLOP ($4.25) 8♦ 2♦ T♣

Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $6.75, Hero calls $3.75

TURN ($17.75) 8♦ 2♦ T♣ K♦

Hero checks, MP2 bets $16.25 (AI), Hero calls $16.25

RIVER ($50.25) 8♦ 2♦ T♣ K♦ 4♥

MP2 shows A♥ A♣
(Pre 83%, Flop 93.6%, Turn 88.6%)

Hero shows 9♥ K♥
(Pre 17%, Flop 6.4%, Turn 11.4%)

MP2 wins $48.25

MP2 is a 13/10 TAG , but he also 3bet 13,3%. So, when he raises I don't give hin any credit!!! Now it's time to bluff!!! Whe the turn gives the K, I'm certain that the pot is mine!!!! (Even I can lose from tones of hands, K included)

4)Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
Hero ($25.10)
BB ($25.75)
UTG ($20.48)
UTG+1 ($25)
UTG+2 ($86.03)
CO ($25.35)
BTN ($25)

Dealt to Hero 9♥ 9♦

UTG calls $0.25, fold, fold, CO raises to $1, BTN raises to $3.25, Hero calls $3.15, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($8) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥

Hero bets $7.64, BTN raises to $21.75 (AI), Hero calls $14.11

TURN ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣

RIVER ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣ T♣

Hero shows 9♥ 9♦
(Pre 19%, Flop 8.4%, Turn 4.5%)

BTN shows K♦ K♥
(Pre 81%, Flop 91.6%, Turn 95.5%)

BTN wins $49.50

BTN is a TAG 12/9/3,2. I think that preflop is OK. (???) At that time I was already -4BI down and I was trying to get my MY money back!!! No thought at all. JUST SUPER TILT

5)Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($12.39)
BB ($11.60)
UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($10.25)
UTG+2 ($10)
MP1 ($25)
MP2 ($24.43)
CO ($15.03)
Hero ($45.27)

Dealt to Hero A♦ Q♣

fold, fold, fold, fold, MP2 calls $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $1, fold, fold, MP2 calls $0.75

FLOP ($2.35) 2♣ 5♦ 9♣

MP2 checks, Hero bets $1.50, MP2 raises to $3, Hero calls $1.50

TURN ($8.35) 2♣ 5♦ 9♣ 7♠

MP2 checks, Hero bets $4, MP2 calls $4

RIVER ($16.35) 2♣ 5♦ 9♣ 7♠ 4♠

MP2 checks, Hero bets $15.61, MP2 calls $15.61

Hero shows A♦ Q♣
(Pre 62%, Flop 26.5%, Turn 13.6%)

MP2 shows J♦ 9♦
(Pre 38%, Flop 73.5%, Turn 86.4%)

MP2 wins $45.57

MP2 is a Loose-pasive 34/8 player who loses a lot -just like me. On the river when he checks, I supposed that he had air or a small pair and that he would fold if I bet!!! So, I push!!!

The performance is over!!!!
Now it's time for the audience to talk about the play....

I will close with verneer's comment after I sent him my hands and my results (-6BI just on Sunday)

I'm not sure what to say.
[12:04:15 PM] Fotis Gardounis: ?
[12:04:27 PM] Pawel Nazarewicz: [10:36 AM] Fotis Gardounis:

<<< On Sunday I lost 6 BI, because of bluffs on the river with air!!!
[12:04:36 PM] Pawel Nazarewicz: I asked you to do one main thing.
[12:04:45 PM] Pawel Nazarewicz: Well.
[12:04:47 PM] Pawel Nazarewicz: Three things.
[12:05:28 PM] Pawel Nazarewicz: I was willing to work with you if you follow my instructions.
[12:06:10 PM] Pawel Nazarewicz: You know what your issue is.
[12:06:16 PM] Pawel Nazarewicz: I know what your issue is.

wow i underestimated you a lot, 3betting K9s vs 12/10 nit, omfg and a 19/17 is a very tight, not event tag and not close by a milisecond to a LAGG

damn u suck soo bad. call call call is all i see.

There is not much point to analyzing specific hands - that's not the problem. The problem is wider than that. My comments are like they were before:

1. Play tighter.
2. Look to make strong hands and get value.
3. Stop bluffing (other than c-betting good flops) - it's not working.

More importantly, really think about WHY you continue bluffing. You can see that it's not working. Why do you continue doing it?

Also, think about WHY you went back to your original strategy after having a day or two of better play and results after we made some changes to your game.

Originally posted by verneer
There is not much point to analyzing specific hands - that's not the problem. The problem is wider than that. My comments are like they were before:

1. Play tighter.
2. Look to make strong hands and get value.
3. Stop bluffing (other than c-betting good flops) - it's not working.

More importantly, really think about WHY you continue bluffing. You can see that it's not working. Why do you continue doing it?

Also, think about WHY you went back to your original strategy after having a day or two of better play and results after we made some changes to your game.

I started to do this when my loses were increasing steadily . I needed something to give my money back. You can see that there are not simple bluffs. They are shoves. I'm thinking "JUST ONE TIME!!!"

Regarding your second question, the learning procedure is not staight. Changing bad habbits is one of the toughest assets on human being. But I have to fight against it. I cannot elininate all my bad habbits at once. I try to reduce their frequency and their severity. Is is not just an instant transformation. It is a procedure. And at that procedure, there are ups and downs. Something like getting clean of drugs.

Originally posted by fotakis

Let's have a look at some of these hands:
1)Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($10.69)
BB ($25)
UTG ($33.32)
Hero ($30.06)
CO ($25.68)
BTN ($15)

Dealt to Hero 8♦ 7♦

UTG raises to $1, Hero calls $1, fold, fold, SB calls $0.90, fold

FLOP ($3.25) T♣ Q♣ 9♠

SB checks, UTG bets $2.32, Hero calls $2.32, SB folds

TURN ($7.89) T♣ Q♣ 9♠ 2♥

UTG bets $5.64, Hero calls $5.64

RIVER ($19.17) T♣ Q♣ 9♠ 2♥ 3♥

UTG checks, Hero bets $21.10 (AI), UTG calls $21.10

UTG shows Q♦ K♦
(Pre 66%, Flop 82.3%, Turn 90.9%)

Hero shows 8♦ 7♦
(Pre 34%, Flop 17.7%, Turn 9.1%)

UTG wins $59.37

UTG is unknown. Let's suppose that preflop is more or less OK. On the flop and on the turn, I don't get enough pot odds to call with my OESD, but I'm thinking of implied odds, although a J gives a lot of reverse implied odds. But in any case is just a mistake.
The disaster comes on the river. When he villain checks, I'm thinking "I've got him!. I' ll represent my straight and he will fold his second pair or his busted draw!! Let's do it!!" ... and I shove...

.

First of, preflop is not okey as u have 2 players behind you who will have position if they call or raise. Also he's UTG range is far ahead of you so its a fold or 3bet pre imo.

Postflop: It's not about pot odds here rly, the only card u can use is a 6 as the J is useless for you, and also one 6 is blocked as u cant stack of if the flush hits. And even if u would hit a 6 u can already be pwn by a better straight..

River: You cant rly represent a straight as KJ or J8 shouldnt even be in youre range, also if he's a thining player he knows that if u would have flopped a straight or a set you will (maybe u wouldnt but u should) raise to protect your hand against flush and straight draws.

Sry for bad grammar but i hope u get my point and learn something.

edit: prolly my first post in english community, yay!

wow... you play so bad. There is no logic behind your play. I would start with - NO BLUFFING!!!!! EVER!!! Till you become brake even on your life graph.

Try to make a short-term goal, like won 10BI in 2 weeks. I use google calendar, to set my goal and edit them on daily basis. This works for me, but probably not for most people. Since you have to keep looking on your bankroll on daily basis, this might tilt you more if you really care about your money. And don't bluff ever.

Originally posted by BoyRobot777
There is no logic behind your play.

Sure there is.

Originally posted by rCarlsson
First of, preflop is not okey as u have 2 players behind you who will have position if they call or raise. Also he's UTG range is far ahead of you so its a fold or 3bet pre imo.

Postflop: It's not about pot odds here rly, the only card u can use is a 6 as the J is useless for you, and also one 6 is blocked as u cant stack of if the flush hits. And even if u would hit a 6 u can already be pwn by a better straight..

River: You cant rly represent a straight as KJ or J8 shouldnt even be in youre range, also if he's a thining player he knows that if u would have flopped a straight or a set you will (maybe u wouldnt but u should) raise to protect your hand against flush and straight draws.

Sry for bad grammar but i hope u get my point and learn something.

edit: prolly my first post in english community, yay!

That's what i wanted to write. I totally agree with you.

Fotakis try to think the hands you played from the villain's point of view. Do they make sense to you ? Are you representing anything ? Is your villain a thinking player ? Listen to verneer's pieces of advice and apply them to your game. Think before you make a decision.

Originally posted by fotakis

4)Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
Hero ($25.10)
BB ($25.75)
UTG ($20.48)
UTG+1 ($25)
UTG+2 ($86.03)
CO ($25.35)
BTN ($25)

Dealt to Hero 9♥ 9♦

UTG calls $0.25, fold, fold, CO raises to $1, BTN raises to $3.25, Hero calls $3.15, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($8) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥

Hero bets $7.64, BTN raises to $21.75 (AI), Hero calls $14.11

TURN ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣

RIVER ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣ T♣

Hero shows 9♥ 9♦
(Pre 19%, Flop 8.4%, Turn 4.5%)

BTN shows K♦ K♥
(Pre 81%, Flop 91.6%, Turn 95.5%)

BTN wins $49.50

BTN is a TAG 12/9/3,2. I think that preflop is OK. (???) At that time I was already -4BI down and I was trying to get my MY money back!!! No thought at all. JUST SUPER TILT

Super Tilt.... but seems to me your not sat in a good position anyway. On the left of a 12/9???

Originally posted by fotakis
Dealt to Hero 9♥ 9♦

UTG calls $0.25, fold, fold, CO raises to $1, BTN raises to $3.25, Hero calls $3.15, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($8) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥

Hero bets $7.64, BTN raises to $21.75 (AI), Hero calls $14.11

TURN ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣

RIVER ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣ T♣

Hero shows 9♥ 9♦
(Pre 19%, Flop 8.4%, Turn 4.5%)

BTN shows K♦ K♥
(Pre 81%, Flop 91.6%, Turn 95.5%)

BTN wins $49.50

Do you know about the call20 rule? because you can put BTN on AK/QQ+ in this spot, you can call only for setvalue.

Because you hit a set 12.5% of the times you cant call any bet, you can only call if you and the BTN hava a stack thats 20 times the size of the bet.

if its a 3.25 bet you and the BTN need a stack of 60$+

You can only call here if the BTN bets 1.25 or less, then you call for setvalue and if you hit flop you play check/raise pot because you want to get it in as soon as possible

If you don't hit your set just fold flop, you will hit 12.5% of the flops on average.

Originally posted by fotakis

Originally posted by verneer
There is not much point to analyzing specific hands - that's not the problem. The problem is wider than that. My comments are like they were before:

1. Play tighter.
2. Look to make strong hands and get value.
3. Stop bluffing (other than c-betting good flops) - it's not working.

More importantly, really think about WHY you continue bluffing. You can see that it's not working. Why do you continue doing it?

Also, think about WHY you went back to your original strategy after having a day or two of better play and results after we made some changes to your game.

I started to do this when my loses were increasing steadily . I needed something to give my money back. You can see that there are not simple bluffs. They are shoves. I'm thinking "JUST ONE TIME!!!"

Regarding your second question, the learning procedure is not staight. Changing bad habbits is one of the toughest assets on human being. But I have to fight against it. I cannot elininate all my bad habbits at once. I try to reduce their frequency and their severity. Is is not just an instant transformation. It is a procedure. And at that procedure, there are ups and downs. Something like getting clean of drugs.

I think Verneer is trying to point out that the problem is laying deeper in your personality and that the bad habits are just the expression of those issues.
Changing them is not realistic as they will continue to surface out in your habits one way or the other because their cause (the generator of those problems) is unsolved (your personality: needs, expectancies, disappointments ).

Another advise:

Try to step down to 10NL en rebuild your bankroll, if you make 5/100 over 50K hands you can try to play 25NL again.

This is how i would do it

Get "Mental game of poker", written by Jared Tendler, and really work on the stuff you read inside. Your biggest problems are mindset-related, not so much poker technique itself.

He also has a thread in the general poker forum right here, so you can ask questions there.

Originally posted by martijnde666
Another advise:

Try to step down to 10NL en rebuild your bankroll, if you make 5/100 over 50K hands you can try to play 25NL again.

This is how i would do it

+1

Even if you consider the current level as "play money" and you won't bothered to lost $1k a day, go down the limit is a good choice. NL10 is easier and less aggressive. You can rebuild your confidence there. More or less your self confidence is hurting right now.

And for everybody whose criticized OP play based on his last hands:
It's unfair to judge OP capability from those hands. He was on tilt and I'm sure it didn't mirror his real capability.

Suddenly everyone is a coach

Originally posted by Skeat
Suddenly everyone is a coach

Or maybe everyone's trying to contribute with what they can!

Originally posted by Skeat
Suddenly everyone is a coach

I'm not. I like slapping in my stack on the river with fingers, toes and everything else crossed. All looks good to me.

Originally posted by martijnde666

Originally posted by fotakis
Dealt to Hero 9♥ 9♦

UTG calls $0.25, fold, fold, CO raises to $1, BTN raises to $3.25, Hero calls $3.15, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($8) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥

Hero bets $7.64, BTN raises to $21.75 (AI), Hero calls $14.11

TURN ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣

RIVER ($51.50) 7♥ 7♣ Q♥ J♣ T♣

Hero shows 9♥ 9♦
(Pre 19%, Flop 8.4%, Turn 4.5%)

BTN shows K♦ K♥
(Pre 81%, Flop 91.6%, Turn 95.5%)

BTN wins $49.50

Do you know about the call20 rule? because you can put BTN on AK/QQ+ in this spot, you can call only for setvalue.

Because you hit a set 12.5% of the times you cant call any bet, you can only call if you and the BTN hava a stack thats 20 times the size of the bet.

if its a 3.25 bet you and the BTN need a stack of 60$+

You can only call here if the BTN bets 1.25 or less, then you call for setvalue and if you hit flop you play check/raise pot because you want to get it in as soon as possible

If you don't hit your set just fold flop, you will hit 12.5% of the flops on average.

Id just like to pull this up as some great constructive advice, guys offer advice dont troll people if they played bad where they re OPENLY ADMITTING they did or were tilted