Kk 041312

PF as played

Post flop I don't like the initial bet sizing as it is a little too big... board is pretty wet but the only connectors in range that hit that board are already there so don't need to protect against that just the flush draw.

Once villain check min raises I think you have to play pot control... he is repping the straight or a set but for your price you can't fold. I don't like the 3-bet shove line because flush draw is still priced in to call, Any villain check raising Top pair would get it in anyway and everything else they are calling has you CRUSHED.

So call min raise on flop and then check or call turn and river except if flush hits in which case check or fold.

actually calling flop is calling for the entire stack like 90%+ of the time.
or do you think that villain is just going to checkdown to river? pot is going to be 6.42, most likely he just shoves any turn.

fold or shove flop depending on what you think of villain. minraise are usually the nuts but this being squeeze pot and all i don't think i fold.

Actually, thinking about it, he probably has you crushed here.

Here's the relevant information you have:
1. You're playing 10NL, usually not the smallest stakes on the site. So the players are bad, but not THAT bad.
2. Your opponent raised from UTG.
3. Your opponent saw you 3bet huge, but decided to call you anyway.

I'd say that eliminates the funny hands out of his range like ATo, usually ATs.

On the flop, he checks, despite knowing you're strong, and decides to go in for a min-raise, let's analyze this against a potentially solid range.

If he has AK clubs, he's probably check-raising all-in. Doesn't make sense to check-min raise.

If he has JJ, QQ, he should be worried you have KK/AA. If he thinks he has the best hand, he's probably shoving.

What hands is he likely to check min-raise with?
77, 66, TT, AA, 76, 89, and a complete bluff.

Considering he raised UTG, he's more likely to have TT or AA than a complete bluff.

I say fold when raised here. With AA, he could still have KK and I'd consider shipping it.

Originally posted by Tomaloc
actually calling flop is calling for the entire stack like 90%+ of the time.

Not if hero had come in with a more reasonable open bet on the flop it wouldn't have. Again don't see the point of betting Pot here. Bet smaller maybe 1/2 - 2/3 pot and then if you get called and club comes on the turn re-evaluate.

As played I think there is the possibility that villain may check turn and even if he does shove any turn for $1.90 into a 6.42 pot I think you can fold but I disagree this villain is shoving any turn as I think this may even be a free card play with a draw.

Originally posted by altruist
If he has JJ, QQ, he should be worried you have KK/AA. If he thinks he has the best hand, he's probably shoving.

disagree I wouldn't completely eliminate those hands here and still feel that it is work a call to the min raise and see what turn card is and villains re-action to it.

Originally posted by supergaijin

Originally posted by Tomaloc
actually calling flop is calling for the entire stack like 90%+ of the time.

Not if hero had come in with a more reasonable open bet on the flop it wouldn't have. Again don't see the point of betting Pot here. Bet smaller maybe 1/2 - 2/3 pot and then if you get called and club comes on the turn re-evaluate.

in any case if villain wants to c/r (even minraise) we likely are playing for the stacks anyway. i nearly always see villain shoving turn or setting up river shove here.

Originally posted by supergaijin
As played I think there is the possibility that villain may check turn and even if he does shove any turn for $1.90 into a 6.42 pot I think you can fold but I disagree this villain is shoving any turn as I think this may even be a free card play with a draw.

i just think that's huge spew. 90%+ of the time he shoves, and you call 1.21 on flop to fold to 1.90 stacks on turn blank? i mean playing as villain i wouldn't just checkfold my unimproved draw/JJ/whatever, just shove it.
of course with a smaller bet on the flop... we could call minraise and have invested "only" like 50% of our stack... to still fold on blank turn. i still don't like it.

Originally posted by supergaijin

Originally posted by altruist
If he has JJ, QQ, he should be worried you have KK/AA. If he thinks he has the best hand, he's probably shoving.

disagree I wouldn't completely eliminate those hands here and still feel that it is work a call to the min raise and see what turn card is and villains re-action to it.

if villain has some weaker overpair like JJ but thinks he's good (some villains just overplay hard) he is still going to shove any turn. i mean, he thinks he's good so he just gets the money in. he has an overpair after all!

now that i think about it, shoving/folding on flop is quite villain dependant. some little info would be appreciated
if he's "strange bluffer" type of guy, call flop to bluff induce turn, maybe fold on :club:. i don't call flop to fold on blank turn ever.

I think the inherent difference in our opinions on this hand is you are reading flop min raise as absolute strength where as I am seeing it as quite possible weakness villain wanting to try and bluff you off a standard c-bet but not really committing to it.

In the absence of any reads why I would consider calling flop and then folding turn because if flop c/r is strength he WILL shove any turn (cept maybe club) if flob raise is weakness I think he will most likely give up on turn.

Originally posted by supergaijin
I think the inherent difference in our opinions on this hand is you are reading flop min raise as absolute strength where as I am seeing it as quite possible weakness villain wanting to try and bluff you off a standard c-bet but not really committing to it.

well, that's right ♦
it's just that "inner voice" thing. nearly all the time when i see check/minraise it's some hand and villain wants to get the stacks in. also minraises have so little "pot odds" fold equity (that's why they are used as value line i guess)
do i see minraise/fold sometimes? yes but almost never.

kinda like limp/raises, so used to seeing the pre-nuts there.
you may want to think, "he's limped with trash and now doesn't want to be pushed off", or give your guts credit. sometimes there is 53o there but it's AA mostly...

Hello nipbourne,

Doubt that we can get away here, of course the min-raise looks kind of crappy but I guess he may as well even have JJ/QQ in his range. You never know them.

Only thing what I would change here is the size of preflop 3bet but it ain't a huge mistake anyways. He just made a bad Call if he called for set mining.

Best Regards.

Only thing what I would change here is the size of preflop 3bet but it ain't a huge mistake anyways.

how much to change?

Originally posted by nipbourne

Only thing what I would change here is the size of preflop 3bet but it ain't a huge mistake anyways.

how much to change?
4x-raise + 1x-per call.