Skip to forum
Liar Dice - Diary o...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Liar Dice - Diary of a Bean Counter!

3,304 Posts
238 Users
124 Reactions
586.7 K Views
MilanBurdych
Joined: 20.05.2008

I think I proved myself many times that am lookin for spots were I think strict ICM or so isnt enough or missleadin...so I did think about this spot more complex, I did think about future game and I still dont like the call...believe me or not I am raise/folding to not very agro or not perfectly adjusting opponent and open folding to very good aggresive opponent...

I ll be very glad and very interested in some math calculating with future game that ll show am wrong and will show that we can call...coz this is the exact spot where I think we "unfortunately" must look at the ICM, simply to see the diff...even if this spot was somehow slightly +EV to call AK, I would fold and why? Because of the future game...this is guy is simply too short and we are too deep...


Reply
Quote
MilanBurdych
Joined: 20.05.2008

Sry for double post - from btn am obv raise/foldin into all types of oppos coz of the short in SB...if I were bvb, am openfoldin to good aggro player with shortie on the btn...


Reply
Quote
MisClick
Joined: 30.05.2008

Originally posted by Tim64
It's frankly pretty exploitable if we're raise/folding AK here vs someone who understands he can abuse.

coming from a microstaker, but this ^. How can you win a game where you do what you are supposed to do all the time? That would end up in a game of tic-tac-toe. I think luck shouldn't be underestimated in games like poker, where we are all subject to it. Use it to your advantage (crazy lunatic pushing that), or disadvantage (panic :f_ugly: ). You reminded him it is a game with a luck element. You took him out of his comfort zone as you didn't behave as you were supposed to. I doubt he will feel totally in control next time he plays you. But again, I microthink so this might change as I grow up :f_eek:


Reply
Quote

ill just add that if i think hes the type to overbet jam 40 bigs ill be limping the BTN here.

and i would probably fold readless to the 3bet ship as played. so i would never really put myself in this kind of spot.

but if somehow i found myself here against a reg id still call as a big F U to him. if he thinks he can ship ATC here against my super tight BTN range im going to teach him a lesson in spiting. (even though its not technically a spite)


Reply
Quote
MilanBurdych
Joined: 20.05.2008

I got your points, but...it is like...am goin to pay, do a minus EV CALL, to literally pay for a big F U in your face...why? There are so many great opposite spots to teach him u r not the one to be abused...


Reply
Quote

future game EV hard to calculate, he's more likely to continue spewing vs you if you have dynamic and you are just going to continue to tighten up because you know hes spewy.

in a vacuum the correct play is raise/fold , but you shouldn't be put into a situation where you have to r/f AKo on the bubble vs a spewy reg. you should play less exploitably.

im not advocating doing this r/c every time, thats just burning money. but doing it this one time for meta-game is fine imo


Reply
Quote
EmanuelC16
Joined: 02.01.2010

What about shoving 37bb in his face with lots because he can't call much and risk getting out 3rd when SB is so short?

Our BU range is naturally tight here and our stack will hurt him, he can't call anything but premiums, can he? By shoving, don't we make him have the tough decision whether to follow ICM or spite call something instead of us?

I don't play SNGs just asking around... :rolleyes:

When he ships I snap call too btw, ICM takes the fun out of poker a lot of the times..


Reply
Quote
jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
What about shoving 37bb in his face with lots because he can't call much and risk getting out 3rd when SB is so short?

Our BU range is naturally tight here and our stack will hurt him, he can't call anything but premiums, can he? By shoving, don't we make him have the tough decision whether to follow ICM or spite call something instead of us?

I don't play SNGs just asking around... :rolleyes:

When he ships I snap call too btw, ICM takes the fun out of poker a lot of the times..

This reminds me of when I was working for an oil company twenty years ago, and went to present some modelling work at an oil industry conference. After my talk, I was sitting behind two middle aged Americans during the next talk, and one of them leant over to the other and said 'What is this maths shiiit anyway?'. :facepalm:


Reply
Quote
JimmyChooEsq
Joined: 09.04.2011

Originally posted by jbpatzer
This reminds me of when I was working for an oil company twenty years ago, and went to present some modelling work at an oil industry conference. After my talk, I was sitting behind two middle aged Americans during the next talk, and one of them leant over to the other and said 'What is this maths shiiit anyway?'. :facepalm:

[Hijack]
Sounds very familiar from when I've worked in a couple of oilfield services companies around Gloucestershire and there's quite a few people like that in the industry.

[/hijack]

At this level, I'd hope that villain would be paying enough attention to make a move like this +EV eventually.

If you don't spew yourself all the way down to NL2, that is. :f_p:


Reply
Quote
Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Feeling pretty horrid this morning. Spent all day yesterday in bed with some unpleasant bug I picked up on Thursday. We had spent the day in Bristol having some very mediocre sushi for lunch at Noa in Clifton Village and then battling our way through IKEA with the two-year-old to buy some bamboo chairs for the conservatory [#donotrepeateveragain].

Despite my grey health and the eternally grey skies, this month has been an incredible run so far (average buyin $39.81):

Feel just a teensy bit guilty about it given how horribly some people on here are running but I must remind myself I've had my own periods of being 150 BI below EV etc.

Anyway, until today I've still been playing $22s on Party and $15s on Stars. It's easy money and I love my steady red line, but I guess that I'm basically overrolled for these games now and I'm probably better off just playing less tables of higher limits rather than filling my screen up for the sake of it. So for the remainder of this month I'm not going to play anything lower than the $30s, with the aim of hitting $50+ ABI over the next week and a half. That said, I really don't want to be playing bad games with 4+ other regs etc., so if it means my volume suffers a bit, I'll just accept that for now.

10 more working days, so I'll aim for 30 games/day and see how I get on. Going for a walk in a bit to see if I can clear my head...

Thanks for reading.


Reply
Quote

Firstly,you are a hero on table selection.I guess you play 6 max in stars too so i believe you have very soft games
Secondly,even though i think games per day isnt good for volume if you dont chase any race then you dont mind if you are going to play even one game if you win it.I hope you understand what you mean
Thirdly,thank you for mentioning us in your blog aka running bad people
Fourthly,even though when the time pass and the wounds have been healed and 150bis doesnt seem so cruel,you are the only one who truly knows how bad was for psychology,health and your family

You have much of my respect and it would be good to release one-two videos for our community because i think you have all we need from a coach.Can you give us your sn and how many $/hr you make in 15$ in stars?

I wish your luck continues lifetime.You deserve it


Reply
Quote
Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

I've been thinking about that AK bubble hand that got people so animated and wondered if it was possible to get closer to the mathematical assessment of how good or bad calling it off is.

Here is the hand again:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $100(BB) Replayer
SB ($616)
BB ($4,720)
Hero ($3,664)

Dealt to Hero A♣ K♦

Hero raises to $200, fold, BB raises to $4,720 (AI), Hero calls $3,464 (AI)

Using ICM Explorer, we can find that we need 74.76% equity vs marginal resteals in order to induce action given the ICM tax. We won't have that equity against any reasteal range (only individual hands such as K2o), therefore we should not be inducing here. (i.e. we should be raise/folding or limping). Note that open folding is probably just bad (even if we think BB reasteals loosely) because we don't give ourselves a chance to pick up SB's remaining chips when gets it in with AJ or w/e.

Now let's flesh that out with some other calculations. Let's make the assumption villain is restealing ATC here. That is the equivalent of our open shoving and getting called by the BB with ATC. SnG Wizard tells us this is bad for us to the tune of -4.80 diff (i.e. we lose 4.8% of a buyin, or $4.80).

However, let's look what happens when we adjust his range so that it's closer to a likely resteal range. Given the hand villain shows up with I think it's reasonable to assume he's not actually re-stealing ATC here. The hand he shows up with (JKs) is one that 'looks nice' and has a decent amount of equity against many hands I might open and blockers to some big hands. So let's give him 20.3%. (Note that reducing this to 13% or so doesn't change the outcome much). Now, the open shove it still bad but it's much less so: -0.47 ($0.47).

Finally, let's change his range yet again, to make it even more realistic by taking out a few of the monster hands we assume aren't in his 35bb+ resteal shove range, i.e. QQ/KK/AA (because we assume he will 3b them normally, for value and to induce).

Then what we see is that the shove is still bad but now it's only -0.14. Now it becomes easier to justify calling it off because we can argue (strongly, imo) that we will recover that $0.14-$0.47 in future game equity vs this opponent, due to our image and his recalled experience of this hand.

Incidentally, from villain's point of view - again in a vacuum - his reasteal is fine if I'm opening 30% here and only calling 2.1% (AKs+). However, if he understands that I should realise I need to tighten up my opening range significantly in this spot in order not to get abused - let's say to something like 10% - then his shove is bad (-0.64).

I think that's enough for now. Tldr: the call off is indeed (immediately) bad but it's not that bad and is probably justifiable from a dynamic/future game equity pov.

@grindtolive, What can I say but... thanks!

I'm hoping my first video will be out this week, so keep your eyes peeled. I hope you understand that I don't necessarily want to publish my screen name here. However I don't mind individuals asking me. You can always PM me and see if I'm feeling talkative...

I honestly can't give you an hourly for $15s on Stars. I play them as part of sets with many other different buyins at varying speeds and I only have a tiny sample of 285 games. However, for that small sample of normal speed games, I'm running at 13.1% EV ROI.


Reply
Quote
MisClick
Joined: 30.05.2008

^ nice.

I wasn't going to mention it because I thought it was all over. As you know, I am slowly catching up with your blog. I thought it was very interesting the hand posted at the top of this page + the viewpoints that follow it. It might be nice for many of the people who have given their ideas with this one to go back to page 57 and see what they thought back then =) (even if it is not exactly the same position, I think the ideas behind are very close to these ones)

And congrats on the great blue graph :f_cool:


Reply
Quote
akrammon
Joined: 17.05.2009

Hey Tim!

Nice month so far, and interesting hand as well.

Just a sidenote/question: doesn't the 4,8 in Wiz mean a 4,8% change of share in the prizepool instead of 4,8% of a BI? I have to be honest, I'm not 100% sure. It doesn't change your conclusions at all, but don't think that you loose 10c with this call or whatever, it's much more imo :)

also, I'd love seeing vids from you Tim!! I hope they accept ya!!


Reply
Quote
Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Originally posted by akrammon
Hey Tim!

Nice month so far, and interesting hand as well.

Just a sidenote/question: doesn't the 4,8 in Wiz mean a 4,8% change of share in the prizepool instead of 4,8% of a BI? I have to be honest, I'm not 100% sure. It doesn't change your conclusions at all, but don't think that you loose 10c with this call or whatever, it's much more imo :)

also, I'd love seeing vids from you Tim!! I hope they accept ya!!

Aaaaargh! What an embarrassing blunder. You're absolutely right. Ofc it's prizepool not BI... Ok, given prize pool is $559.49 (rather than $100 BI) then all figures should be multiplied by 5.59.

So figures become: $26.83, $2.62, $0.79 respectively. Hmmm $26.83 seem a lot to teach someone a lesson, so let's hope the assumptions about his range are correct! :rolleyes:

@MisClick, good spot. Lots of parallels. I like my call in the earlier hand a lot more b/c we can't be busted if we're wrong or get sucked out.


Reply
Quote
OtterlyGood
Joined: 08.04.2011

Nice blog, been following (quietly) for some time now :)

Keep up the good work!


Reply
Quote
Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Originally posted by OtterlyGood
Nice blog, been following (quietly) for some time now :)

Keep up the good work!

Hi there! Thanks for following and thanks for breaking your silence, too.


Reply
Quote
EmanuelC16
Joined: 02.01.2010

This hand reminds me of Durrrr vs Cates in the Premier League... When Dwan kept asking jungleman how could he call with AKo in that spot and it was just a shove by Dwan, not even vs a 3bet.. LOL ICMaments!


Reply
Quote
Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
This hand reminds me of Durrrr vs Cates in the Premier League... When Dwan kept asking jungleman how could he call with AKo in that spot and it was just a shove by Dwan, not even vs a 3bet.. LOL ICMaments!

Do you have the link? Not seen that one. Thanks in advance :)


Reply
Quote
EmanuelC16
Joined: 02.01.2010