poker IS gambling

here, i drew you a graph OP! print it out and put it up on the wall above your monitor for some extra motivation

Originally posted by fenelonpoker
yes sir,i realized that...plus,i have been a member of payed coaching/strategy sites and people are a lot more friendly and helpfull,here it is just like you said 90% of the people will just be smart ass kids that dont really know what discussing a subject means...better to pay and be a part of a 1k member friendly comunity then to yell at the riff raff for free i guess...

The thing is that you don't realize how very little you know. If you had a decent understanding of poker you would realize how laughingly bad your statements sometimes can get. There- that sounds rude again but that is not my intention to insult you here. That's just how it is. It is close to impossible to have a reasoned discussion about these topics with people like you until you gain some knowledge. No matter what will be said to persuade you you've already made your mind and you will (most likely) not change it (people who think that pokersites are rigged are even worse).

Maybe someday you will look back at this thread and it will make you laugh out laud and think- damn, how could I be that dumb!?

If you shove all in pre flop with any two cards, every hand, then you are gambling. If you however fold the garbage and play good hands, knowing that you will win more often than you will lose, then its skill.

Thats the point the donks don't realise. It takes skill to know when to bet, and when to let a hand go.

Just wanted to clear up some inaccuracies I noticed.

1) There is luck in chess. (Advanced players will understand this. You can also bluff in chess.)

2) Blackjack is a game of skill. (The fact that you do not have an edge vs the house doesn't mean it isn't a skill game.)

3) No-one said poker isn't gambling. It's a game both of skill and chance; where skill is the predominant factor over a large enough sample size. (How big this sample needs to be is the only thing that really can be debated.)

Leatherass explains it this way. Can you intentionally lose at a game like roulette? Nope....it's purely chance. Can you intentionally lose at poker? Yup, just fold every hand.

Originally posted by Vygantas82
it's always worth to open threads like this in those "poker" forums to watch all those moderators, shills, kiss ass affiliates and brainwashed kids going nuts. Very quickly you will release that whenever you try to discus with people all those people will do anything to make you look like and idiot and protect their little "poker" sites at any costs. The only thing they like is all this kiss ass propaganda. Because it's obvious that poker is not only a skill game but depends more or less from luck (depends from game type you play). Don't waste your time in those poker forums if you want to discuss about poker. Create skype group or smth.

Says the man with 200+ posts on here...

As many people have said, poker is a game of skill with gambling embedded within it.

Until OP (on one of his two accounts) gives parameters on what he believes constitutes proof, rather than just telling people they are wrong without offering any counter proof, the thread is going nowhere

i can't believe i actually read this till here...

Originally posted by PoincaresConjecture
i can't believe i actually read this till here...

+1 I did this too. and I was like wtf? why I red the whole thing

Originally posted by fenelonpoker
I would like to open a discussion here.i came to the conclusion,after playing for a few years that nlhe is no different from baccarat,blackjack,punto banco,etc.If someone can prove to me that skill has anything to do with it,then please,i am waiting,Only people with all their teeth and at least 2 brain cells in good condition,if you play nl2 for 2 months then your opinion will be worth as much as the average pot at those tables,and keep it classy i'm not having a go at anyone or anything,for fuck sakes

So, because you say poker is a game of imperfect information it means poker is gambling.

My best comparison with this is Military Warfare, yes WAR. Using your kind of thinking, there are no skills in a warfare, no strategies, no tactics, no use of psychology to confuse the enemy. The soldier's training is not necessary either.

Are you fucking kidding me ? Haven't you really played any RTS ?

You don't believe that a weaker army or even a shitty army can't beat the shit out of a stronger army. Well then, read Napoleon's wars from Italy, they are epic proof this is possible. Get interested in the battles that commanders of WWII won with inferior armies, you will see enough proof there. See what Hannibal did and other daring generals.

As in war so in poker, a big factor is confusing your enemy, thinking you are weaker or stronger than you really are so he will fall in trap or fall back so you take the prize. In war or RTS you have sattelites, spies, to observe your enemy, in poker you have HM and PT.

Sorry but you are biased to the core.

Originally posted by paaaaau

Originally posted by PoincaresConjecture
i can't believe i actually read this till here...

+1 I did this too. and I was like wtf? why I red the whole thing

+1

And I trolled it too

And I will troll it again (sorry, can't resist):

Is thread creation a game of luck or skill?

Poker is gambling OP ? Thanks for the heads up !! I have been duped into thinking it was a game of skill..."damn you all pokerstrategists!! Damn you all"

I WANT MY FREE $50 BACK PLEASE!!!!

Well, I never thought my first posting here will be about the primeval question: is poker a game of skill or is it a game of luck ?

In my view, poker is a game of skill with substantial luck factor involved.

But let's consider sports with prize pool tournaments... like tennis or chess, for example.

Chess nowadays is no longer a game of skill... it is more a game of tactical preparation with super-computers and expensive software. And luck factor in chess is very underestimated ! In chess luck is even involved at the opening stage - what opening will the white select and what response will the black choose. I won't go in deep details, cause I am pretty biased due to my presence in the FIDE ranking table...

In tennis, skill is demonstrated by hitting the small ball in such a way that your opponent cannot return it to you... but even the most skilled players cannot hit the end-line with 100% precision. Sometimes (quite often indeed) the ball is out by just few inches...

And in tennis you don't have only the skill and the luck... you have the linesmen and the referree... You can hit the line, but the linesman says "out" and there is no hawk eye allowed... You get angry... and you get even additional penalty if you curse the refs...

In poker, the rules are so clear that you don't need any linesmen or referrees ! So, at least the referree factor is eliminated !

But do NOT think that my oppinion about poker is: "100% game of skill".

You can win 82% with AA versus KK. But if you win 4 times in one tournament with AA vs KK and then you lose only 1 time with AA vs KK, you can be eliminated... 80% win rate in terms of hands won, but 0% in terms of prize money won... Do NOT miscalculate !!! The weight of wins and losses is not the same. And very often only one loss is enough to wipe out all previous wins...

So, in the long run you can have your 82% win rate with AA vs KK (QQ... 2-2), but you can still win ZERO.

But skill is NOT only selecting the good hands. It is about monitoring your stack and the stacks of your opponents. It is about pushing with crap hands when you are cornered, but folding with top hands when you see that risk of elimination is too high to be neglected...

In my view poker can be gambling NOT because of luck involved, but because of the possible ADDICTION !!!

ADDICTION to poker can ruin your lives, bring your family to bankruptcy and cost you not only loooooots of money, but even your mental health...

However, if you can be disciplined and organized... if you can restrain yourself and avoid depositing and depositing and depositing till the last dime, then you still can be addicted to the game itself, but will not end up bankrupt.

And if you AVOID the tempting deposit bonuses, but CHOOSE poker rooms that offer easy "second chance" (i.e., freerolls to re-build your bankroll), you can afford being addicted to poker and you will still retain your family, your cash and your mental health.

The problem with gambling is not the luck... The problem is addiction that can cost you money... Control your money, control your addiction and... gambling is no longer a problem.

And I don't even care that a greedy government will decide against poker (because they want to tax even the air you breathe !)... as long as it is not MY government ! And I don't care if 12 judges in USA are poker fans deciding it is a game of skill... Luck and/or skill ??? I don't care. I like the game and I will play it.

But I am lucky to know how money works and how to control and manage money. So, I am and will be addicted to poker, but I guarantee to you that my family will not go bankrupt because of my passion...

Cheers !
Milen.

Depends how you play. If, for example, you're like me and have a innate compulsion to bluff vs. unknown opponents at every given oppertunity uNL, then yeah, perhaps. . .

At any rate, this paper is worth a read:

The Role of Skill Versus Luck in Poker: Evidence from the World Series of Poker

In determining the legality of online poker – a multibillion dollar industry – courts have relied heavily on the issue of whether or not poker is a game of skill. Using newly available data, we analyze that question by examining the performance in the 2010 World Series of Poker of a group of poker players identified as being highly skilled prior to the start of the events. Those players identified a priori as being highly skilled achieved an average return on investment of over 30 percent, compared to a -15 percent for all other players. This large gap in returns is strong evidence in support of the idea that poker is a game of skill.

Originally posted by Fuzzylogicc
Depends how you play. If you're like me and have a innate compulsion to bluff vs. unknown opponents at every given oppertunity uNL, for example, then yeah, perhaps. . .

At any rate, this paper is worth a read:

The Role of Skill Versus Luck in Poker: Evidence from the World Series of Poker

In determining the legality of online poker – a multibillion dollar industry – courts have relied heavily on the issue of whether or not poker is a game of skill. Using newly available data, we analyze that question by examining the performance in the 2010 World Series of Poker of a group of poker players identified as being highly skilled prior to the start of the events. Those players identified a priori as being highly skilled achieved an average return on investment of over 30 percent, compared to a -15 percent for all other players. This large gap in returns is strong evidence in support of the idea that poker is a game of skill.

My oppinion is that:

1. The US government wanted to declare poker as "gambling" NOT because they wanted to prevent ordinary people from the "potential vice", but because they wanted to force online poker into regulation and to tax it... heavily !
It is interesting how the government taxes heavily all lottery winners, but will never reimburse you with 40 cents on a dollar for every lottery ticket that did not win...

2. The poker rooms on their hand, used the word play "game of skill and not game of luck" NOT because they really cared if poker is gambling or not, but because there was a loophole in legislation that would let them avoid regulation and taxation.
In my country, some companies that practically run gambling games, hide that by claiming "this is a game of skill"... And the skill is to... dial a heavy toll phone number and answer a silly question ! (the capital of England is: London, Mississaga or Maui) And only 1 in 1000 wins...
But the presence of the silly question is enough for the legal loophole to be exploited...

But I already said - I don't really care if poker is a game of skill or a game of luck or both...

I like it and I'll play it.

fake

dude, its quite simple, watch a few videos here, read a few articles and u will learn basic strategy.. with that already u should be able to win some money aggainst many guys who never learned anything about poker, and then ask yourself if u only won that money because of luck, or because u played better than your opponends which obviosly shows that its a game of skill... i grind 5-10k hands a day and yes there are huge swings, but in the end i`ve profited in last 5 or 6 months in a row, before that i was breaking even @ NL100 because i wasnt good enough, and i will hopefully soon move to NL200, and when playing soo many hands per month month i got the oppinion that its only game of skill as i overcome variance for the biggest part, so its simple, make less mistakes than ur opponends, play lots of hands and u will get a feeling like its printing moneyz...

and yes my progress is slow, im aware of that, only recently did i start to put more time in working at my game, so i hope for faster progress in the future..f

LOL if the guy has gold status don't you think that he knows basic strategy (At least)

I've just had a worrying thought.

Are forum posts the product of random chance, or skill?

i was talking to the guy who opened this thread and who is convinced that poker is game of luck..