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Full Tilt Poker De-Tracks all PokerStrategy.com Players - Part 2

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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007

Originally posted by Korn

Originally posted by TwiceT
[...]

Hi TwiceT,

thank you for your feedback.

I think it would have been fairer if you had mentioned at the beginning of your post that you work for a PokerStrategy.com competitor.

Best regards,
Dominik

I work for a PS competitor. I don't get the connection between me working for PVIP and the issue we got here. I was 4 days on a conference, followed the German and English threads. Came back yesterday, my Skype was all over with opinions on how you communicated this case. Also quite a few coaches share user's opinions. Not many feel to post their opinion like Roo said.

In my opinion this is not an issue about being tracked with FTP, this is mostly an issue how PS communicates and treats users. Ofc this is only my opinion, and yes it might be true that am I am slightly biased given my experiences in the past. Still, this has nothing to do with my being with PVIP. In fact, I still have more friends on PS (for obv reasons, I have been an active member for many years here and I would bet quite some money that nobody out of this community meat more other community members in person in RL)


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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007

In case I didn't make it clear, my main point was:

Even though we as players lose value (RB, SPs) (which means we should always be on Pokerstrategy's side) we still are not. At least from what I see on Skype and on the Forum more than half of your users are not. (I don't count Bronze members who don't really play, I mean active users who rake for you)

This fact alone should make you think really really hard imo. It clearly shows a) mistakes in the current communication regarding the issue itself about FTP tracking and b) wrongdoings in the past which have been discussed multiple times on the forum.

I don't think my wording was inappropriate nor did I promote another coaching site (you started with "mention that you work for sb else", I don't think this has any effect on my statement. I would say the same if I wasn't and btw, I also don't agree with everything PVIP does and I also tell it them directly). I just mentioned my opinion and it's usually helpful to get feedback, even if negative. Most other ppl who think like me don't share their thoughts on the board and just spread bad news about your site on Skype etc.


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Rihard4a
Joined: 08.09.2010
This is how I see TT

:coolface:


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Hi,

Yes probably the view of PS is biased. But it isnt really fair/nice what pokerstars did right? (although it might be according to the law)

For us - the players - this isnt good too, right? I'd rather receive SP's than not.

Will the most of us still play at FTP anyway? I think so because their software and games rock hard.

So why don't cooperate and try to get the most out of this instead of just flaming around and arguing about how things were communicated?

My 2 cents,

T.


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Cpwpoker
Joined: 04.06.2009

My opinion is the same so flame me =D!

For me Full tilt have the obligation to follow its contract. If we look at the bigger picture Poker stars has bought only the assets and not the liabilities.

I don't really care being track or not. Like most of us we are thinking that Pokerstrategy is showing a lot of negative news on Full tilt because they are pissed with the decision of full tilt concerning the affiliate program but I think that it is unfair to buy only the asset and not the liabilities it is not how a company is sold.

Let put ourself in Pokerstrategy shoes. When we knew about BF and lost our bankroll who was not pissed? Pokerstrategy has invest money to attract new player in their forum and also in Full tilt platform and for this they were paid. The amount due to them is their BR. Now that full tilt is opened back they expect their BR back? But then full tilt tell them that they will get nothing they have reason to be pissed.

Pokerstrategy also did a bad move, I think. In 2013 the affiliate program will be up again by doing all this bad publicity will Full tilt want to be affiliate with Poker strategy again? Will Poker start one day stop their affiliation program as they are getting the monopoly of online poker?

In summary I just wanted to say that Full tilt should pay Poker strategy their past dues and that Pokerstrategy should not make an obvious attack on Full tilt which is having an adverse effect on our community.

For us players we are happy about getting our BR back we are a lil pissed about the 27% rakeback but I don't think we care about Poker Strategy monthly revenue.

Flame me go go go <3


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FatSunny
Joined: 22.05.2011

Hate to say it but carry on and Stars will probably blow you out aswell, be careful......


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mktpppr
Joined: 18.07.2010

@FatSunny, you got it

forget about Full Tilt, substitute "Full Tilt" with "PokerStars Sugar Free"

i wonder if this is ps.com attacking Stars, a pre-emptive strike

i wonder if ps.com foresees a problem with Stars affiliation in the near future

that will put me on severe monkey tilt, i earn ps.com points through Stars

anyway, can't we all just get along? :f_love:


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roopopper
Joined: 31.12.2010

Originally posted by Korn

Originally posted by TwiceT
[...]

Hi TwiceT,

thank you for your feedback.

I think it would have been fairer if you had mentioned at the beginning of your post that you work for a PokerStrategy.com competitor.

Best regards,
Dominik

Having some, albeit limited knowledge of social media management I feel compelled to say.....

This is the kind of post that is doing pokerstrategy no favours at all X(

TT is a very respected member of pokerstrategy and still posts on the forum even if he is a member of another site.

Its very sad to me to see this whole issue dividing members of this great community. Perhaps it would be better if the whole thread was deleted and we concentrated on the things that bring us all together.

Roo :)


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MatejM47
Joined: 21.01.2010

Originally posted by IngridN

1) We have incurred considerable costs and efforts to generate new players for the old Full Tilt. The new Full Tilt is using the same software, the same brand and the same player database as the old one. We directly contributed to the success that the new Full Tilt will have. That they can do so and generate significant profits from it without us getting any form of compensation is - in our view – unfair, disregarding whether it is legal or not.

here.

Ingrid

Correct me if im wrong, but the old FT went busto. So you directly contributed to their demise as well? We'll probably never know how much of the FT rake went to pokerstrategy and how that contributed to BF and FTP going broke. FPT made a bunch of bad decisions and maybe the affiliate contracts were bad as well, not that the general public will ever know exactly what % you were getting from FTP and if that was sustainable.

Can someone from PS please explain me how you are ''protecting the players'' by advertising against playing on FTP? Giving bad publicity to them really doesn't help anybody and its just making you look bad.


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MatejM47
Joined: 21.01.2010

Originally posted by Cpwpoker
My opinion is the same so flame me =D!

For me Full tilt have the obligation to follow its contract. If we look at the bigger picture Poker stars has bought only the assets and not the liabilities.

I don't really care being track or not. Like most of us we are thinking that Pokerstrategy is showing a lot of negative news on Full tilt because they are pissed with the decision of full tilt concerning the affiliate program but I think that it is unfair to buy only the asset and not the liabilities it is not how a company is sold.

Let put ourself in Pokerstrategy shoes. When we knew about BF and lost our bankroll who was not pissed? Pokerstrategy has invest money to attract new player in their forum and also in Full tilt platform and for this they were paid. The amount due to them is their BR. Now that full tilt is opened back they expect their BR back? But then full tilt tell them that they will get nothing they have reason to be pissed.

Pokerstrategy also did a bad move, I think. In 2013 the affiliate program will be up again by doing all this bad publicity will Full tilt want to be affiliate with Poker strategy again? Will Poker start one day stop their affiliation program as they are getting the monopoly of online poker?

In summary I just wanted to say that Full tilt should pay Poker strategy their past dues and that Pokerstrategy should not make an obvious attack on Full tilt which is having an adverse effect on our community.

For us players we are happy about getting our BR back we are a lil pissed about the 27% rakeback but I don't think we care about Poker Strategy monthly revenue.

Flame me go go go <3

Wtf are you talking about? So your saying that if a company goes bankcrupt, and someone were to buy some of their assets (eg; buildings, cars, machinery...) he would be liable for all of the companies old debts and their previous contracts? Thats just retarded and if that were so stars would never buy FTP(or anyone else for that matter) and we would never see our money.


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shichibukaii
Joined: 28.06.2009

About the latest news regarding the EDGE system and how it fares vs the old one. I really like those information news, but PokerStrategy tries really hard to show FTP in a bad light. They've severed ties with you so you're missing out on a lot of profit probably, but they still bought out a dead cat and are paying off my bankroll, which I'm very grateful for, so it's kind of unprofessional to be so butthurt. It was kinda stupid to assume that they'd offer the same or even greater rakeback to begin with.


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Cornie4ever
Joined: 19.04.2009

Originally posted by roopopper
Perhaps it would be better if the whole thread was deleted and we concentrated on the things that bring us all together.

Roo :)

good point _thumbsup: I guess it´s over now, it was not the most pleasant topic and probably got discussed too far... but sometimes discussion is a good thing and different opinions are the foundation for dialogue

have a good night,
Pavel


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Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Some observations, which are intended to be as unbiased as possible (esp. as I am pulled in different directions on this one): Apologies for any factual mistakes; some of what follows is supposition.

FTP's return is a good thing for the poker economy, many players on Pokerstrategy, and the future of online poker. Many people will return to online poker who were disillusioned by FTP's demise and that's good, regardless of where you play. The fact that players are getting their bankrolls back is a good thing, period. It's one story in online poker's recent history which has a happy ending. No one who is about to be reunited with hundreds, or even thousands of dollars, which they thought they'd lost forever can be persuaded that its somehow a bad thing or a situation in which they, as players, are losing out.

Whatever PokerStrategy's expectations about what would happen on the return of FTP, the fact that players who were introduced to the platform by PS will be able to play there, no longer generating revenue for PokerStrategy, is a major headache. We shouldn't underestimate this impact on PokerStrategy, and it goes a long way to explaining why PokerStrategy is so upset with the situation. Remember: FTP returning without honouring the prexisting affiliation agreements is potentially worse (for PokerStrategy) than FTP not returning at all, because if players who currently generate revenue for PokerStrategy move back to FTP (and away from sites where they are tracked) PokerStrategyis worse off. This is the difficulty: normally the interests of PokerStrategy members coincide with those of the company. But in this instance, it's not necessarily so.

Since this wonderful site costs money to run - not just the educational content, but these lovely forums where we can all troll and rant :), it's an issue for all of us if PokerStrategy loses out financially.

Nothing can change the status quo (Stars isn't going to pay out on affilate contracts out of a sense of moral obligation). PokerStrategy can and should do everything it can to limit its exposure to this setback. And that includes making reasonable attempts to encourage its members to play on tracked sites. That's nothing new. It's always been the business model and we shouldn't be naiive about that. As players we must weigh up the pros and cons and then decide what is best for us.

I don't think PokerStrategy is under an obligation to be 'objective' in its portrayal of FTP. FTP/Stars has unilaterally decided to sever FTP's ties with their affilates and they must accpet the flip side of that decision. Why would PS say "FTP is great, you should play there?" While I don't believe PokerStrategy should wilfully mislead its members (and I don't think it has), I also don't think PokerStrategy do FTP's PR for them. It's now up to FTP to persuade its player base to return. PokerStrategy is not under any obligation to weigh up the pros and cons of Old vs New FTP for the benefit of its members - PokerStrategy is a business in a competitive market, not an information service.

To some extent, members with a/c at FTP are caught in the middle of this "crossfire". But in any situation where competing businesses are trying to woo the same set of customers, those customers need to do their own homework and think for themselves. Luckily poker players are intelligent people! Now, more than ever, it's imperative that PokerStrategy properly hypes the excellent educational content available and the its stellar cast of coaches. This is the best way to win over the hearts and minds of wavering members ;)


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Originally posted by Tim64
And that includes making reasonable attempts to encourage its members to play on tracked sites. That's nothing new. It's always been the business model and we shouldn't be naiive about that.

While I agree with you on most points, I think that Pokerstrategy has gone a bit overboard with their attempts to stop people from playing on FTP.

Of course it's ok to encourage people to play on other sites but I think it's not fair to advise community against playing on FTP - even from business point of view.

That's just my opinion.

Otherwise I think your post is a great summary of this whole incident from a business point of view (maybe a bit biased but still).


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MatejM47
Joined: 21.01.2010

Originally posted by Tim64
While I don't believe PokerStrategy should wilfully mislead its members (and I don't think it has)

Did you read your latest news? Talking about the one where you guys compare new vs old FT rakeback system is highly misleading. You are trying to make it look like its the shittiest VIP system out there while that definitely isn't true.

With their new system its fairly easy to hit 30% rb which is comparable to any other site out there. Why do you guys even make this comparison with a site that doesn't exist anymore. Go and make that same chart vs Party poker or UB and then see how much rake were paying on different sites.

Not to mention we don't even know how much rake we're going to pay in the first place. Its totaly retarded to talk about how much rake your getting back when you don't know how much rake your paying at the first place.


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Cpwpoker
Joined: 04.06.2009

They did not file for bankruptcy else DOJ would have liquidate it assets and pay preference stakeholders their money due first.

Pokerstars bought the company back so he is the new owner of both the assets and liabilities.

It may seems retard to you but it is how business work.

So if one day you are buying a company that exist since 5 6 yrs ago. You will only buy it assets and not it liabilities? The bank will be happy to write off your loan as you are a new owner?That my point.


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MatejM47
Joined: 21.01.2010

Originally posted by Cpwpoker
They did not file for bankruptcy else DOJ would have liquidate it assets and pay preference stakeholders their money due first.

Pokerstars bought the company back so he is the new owner of both the assets and liabilities.

It may seems retard to you but it is how business work.

So if one day you are buying a company that exist since 5 6 yrs ago. You will only buy it assets and not it liabilities? The bank will be happy to write off your loan as you are a new owner?That my point.

We dont even know exactly what they bought and it seems that legally they are not liable to their old contracts. We also don't know who pokerstartegy had a contract with, pocket kings, or fulltilt poker or w/e shady stuff was going on in the old FTP.

So basically your saying that if old FTP had a lifetime contract with ray bitar for 200k a month then they should honor it?

Technically FTP didn't file for bankruptcy but they they we're still bankrupt. If pokerstars wouldn't buy FTP then they would probably be bankrupt on nov 6 and we wouldn't be getting our monies back. The main reason DOJ let them only buy off the assets not the liabilities was to get the players re-paid. If not FTP would go bankrupt and they could of bought their assets in bankruptcy procedure next month anyway.


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Cpwpoker
Joined: 04.06.2009

Even if they indeed buy only the assets and not the liabilities - They have kept the same employees , they are operating on the same brand name and continue the same business as before.

It is highly probable that legally the liabilities goes to the successor.

Directors contract can't be lifetime but only of a max of 5 yrs and as all the directors of full tilt has resigned they are not entitle to what they had on their contract.

As long as you don't file for bankruptcy technically or not you are liable to your creditors.

If not FTP would go bankrupt and they could of bought their assets in bankruptcy procedure next month anyway.

Why do you think pokerstars bought full tilt before it file for bankruptcy? If he did wait for the filing of bankruptcy then bought the assets off the doj it would have been way cheaper for them.

If they did this they would not have been able to use full tilt assets as all the players who lost their BR would have been pissed against this transaction.

Even if they did nothing they would have been the monopoly of the actual online poker.

The buying of Full Tilt means only one thing for me :

They are preparing for the US market. As Full tilt had the most of the US market. Remember during the BF - we expected a big loss of Poker Star traffic but it was not reduce by much.

They are not savior or anything they are just good business investor.

Just my 2c


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MatejM47
Joined: 21.01.2010

Yeah you are correct. Pokerstars isn't a Santa or a charity, their a business and they make the max +EV decision if they got a chance of the US market. But if Pokerstrategy and other affiliates get screwed over means us getting paid then its a no-brainer.

The first and only priority in fulltilt drama had to be players getting paid. If such a huge company with so many players can rip ppl off like that everyone's going to have a hard time trusting pokersites in the future.


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mktpppr
Joined: 18.07.2010

Hey RobertAdams,

Full Tilt Poker has retroactively de-tracked your account from PokerStrategy.com, meaning you will no longer be eligible to receive StrategyPoints or affiliate-based rakeback on Full Tilt Poker.

In an effort to compensate you for this, we have teamed up with PartyPoker to offer the largest promotion PokerStrategy.com has ever released – an uncapped 100% deposit bonus clearing at 27% additional rakeback.
...


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