If you play some sort of a speed poker then it could be discussed whether AI with KK pre-flop on micros is profitable or not, but lets not go to that.
You have just run bad. That happens, but as you get up the levels you will be having a lot better value with KK. Don't ya worry.
And YES, limp/shove on these levels is 99 % of the time AA+
Originally posted by CPallo
If you play some sort of a speed poker then it could be discussed whether AI with KK pre-flop on micros is profitable or not, but lets not go to that.You have just run bad. That happens, but as you get up the levels you will be having a lot better value with KK. Don't ya worry.
And YES, limp/shove on these levels is 99 % of the time AA+
I love that you put + after AA ♦ 
Well, everyone can say anying, I just have my own experiance, and according to it it's -EV if we both push preflop. Even if the sample size is small, mathematically it makes it more likely that it's -EV than it's +. I KNOW this sounds crazy, but still, the numbers indicate it.
Everyone says this is a stupid thing, but show me some facts! I thought this is absurd aswell BEFORE I filtered my hands and saw the actual results.♦
I dont care if you 4beted with KK and the guy folded, you would have had the same result with 72o. It doesnt matter if you have Kk there or not. I'm curious about the times the the guy DID call your shove, or shoved himself.
On higher limits it could be profitable, but on nl2-nl5 it doesnt seem like. If you disagree, feel free to back up your claim with something constructive than: lol.
IM NOT SAYING, and the results dont mean naturally that it's -EV to actually bet/bet/bet it preflop. Most of the times the villain calls it before going AI, so it's purely for value, and works of course. Clearly it's +EV to bet with KK as much as you like.
BUT if you actually get AI, it doesnt seem as strong.
Just wait a minute, I'll try to find my Graph on NL2-5 with KK, let's see is it profitable ♦
But maybe you should be just shoveing KK yourself when you have to 4-bet. If you minraise there AK or AQ guys may realize that they are not doing good and fold, and in those cases only hands like AA/KK/QQ continue. Harsssh
Edit: My KK's on micros, shows that at least it is POSSIBLE to win with them ♦
Edit: Let's add the filtered one, too:
EDIT EDIT: PT3 doesn't want to show them ♦ But anyway, you will make the profit with combination of pre-flop AI+post-flop actions. It can't always be AA you meet there pre. There will be worse hands, too :))
Originally posted by CPallo
Just wait a minute, I'll try to find my Graph on NL2-5 with KK, let's see is it profitable ♦But maybe you should be just shoveing KK yourself when you have to 4-bet. If you minraise there AK or AQ guys may realize that they are not doing good and fold, and in those cases only hands like AA/KK/QQ continue. Harsssh
But please filter it correctly:
1) You have KK
2) You both are AI preflop.
Thanks a lot, I'm really curious.
Originally posted by bennisboy
I'm gonna start limp shoving every hand so it always looks like i have aces
LOL 
This has made my day complete!
Originally posted by Meda1985
Originally posted by bennisboy
I'm gonna start limp shoving every hand so it always looks like i have acesLOL
And one day you'll see that someone who initially raised had those Aces :'< Sad.
Thanks for the effort though Cpallo. 
Someone has obviously informed PT3 that what are we up to here. ♠_cool:
This may be the biggest secret in poker. It's so secret, that everyone thinks the opposite is true.
Anyone can post the results here and see what happens:
1) You had KK
2) You got AI preflop.
Face your fears, and check it out.
On a sidenote: limp/shoving every hand MAY work like 3 times in a row. YOu join a table, and push AI from BB/SB, and after that at one point you limp/shove, and leave the table.
It could be +ev. It's not impossible, and I'm serious.
UNTIL one hasnt tried it, he can't say 100% sure it's not.
Originally posted by CPallo
Originally posted by Meda1985
Originally posted by bennisboy
I'm gonna start limp shoving every hand so it always looks like i have acesLOL
And one day you'll see that someone who initially raised had those Aces :'< Sad.
Been there, done that! But, usually if it is at micro-stakes, it is some donk who is trying out to be smart! But, if you know it is a regular, you ought to fold everything! But, unless my instinct also says that he has Rockets, I won't be folding Cowboys! Point being, one with AA usually won't shove, he will just 3bet! If he shoves, I will probably call with KK, maybe even something less! Remember, his wish was for you to be in a hand, not to remove you from one, so shoving doesn't make sense! Of course, with all of this reasoning, he can still have them! So many times aggressive donk that open-raises 35% of hands shoves with AA, because setup was against you! And, also, you can lose with AA vs 72o PFAI, so, I will call a shoce with KK, one-on-one, 99% of time! If he turns his aces, I still have, what, 18% chance to win!?
Originally posted by dannywratten
No money at NL 5, everyone solid.
u just made my day sir
Originally posted by Friedric
preflop:
+postflop:
I'm surprised tbh
Thanks Friedric. Well, your sample is pretty huge lol, and after 170 hands it's -EV to get AI with KK preflop. Sounds sick.
random stakes
#fullringzoom
i knew that result already actually 
Ok, now we know that it is true, that if we get AI preflop with KK, we loose money.
How could we utilize this fact?
I imagine e.g. Deepstacked only calling a 4bet with it. If you 5bet, I guess only AA continues. In that case, you could even have 72o, same thing.
BUT KK is much stronger than 72o, we need to get more value out of it. So rather call the 4bet.
This is just a quick and hazy example, but you get the point, we could do something differently, knowing that if we 5bet push and he calls, we loose. It could be better to call, and shove flop.
I've had KK about 1,100 times when playing between nl2 and nl5 6max with 85 of those being preflop all-ins.
Preflop I'm up 10 buyins = 11.76bb each, postflop I'm up 75 buy ins = 7.5bb each.
I'm gonna keep 3betting.
If you're incredibly tight you're more likely to be facing AA when shown aggression.
Lol, may be PF AI you're losing with KK. But as you can see in the graphs, the EV line isnt going straight down. This means we face a lot more hands than AA only
If you start to fold to the shoves, the result will be that your EV will go down even more since you give up your equity (you've already invested money in those pots) against the general PF AI range (wider than AA).
The money comes from the total game plan with KK. As you can see in the graphs (red line going up).
Ofcourse there are some spots where you shouldnt 3bet KK to begin with (against super tight players). But as soon as you 3bet, there is no fold button pre-flop imo
But be my guest and start folding KK preflop
T.
Well, obviously folding KK to a limp/shove is either pure genious or pure stupid.
It may very well be that it's the best move. But it's hard to say, because you wont see villain's card
I may be tempted to call a 4 bet with KK more often. Because I dont need KK to 5bet, either villain folds or calls with AA, and 72 plays equally well against AA as KK does.
Who knows
So what will you do when you call a 4bet with KK and the flop brings an A?
And what do you think your opponent will do with TT-JJ-QQ when the flop brings an overcard?
What do you think your opponent will do with AK when he doesnt hit the board (67% of the time ).
Calling a 4bet with KK IP is a valid option against some players. Calling KK OOP will get you in nasty spots for sure.
In Zoom I would fold to an UTG limp/shove for 100xbb+ some of the times yes. If I see him doing it more often I will call all day and expect to see A-rag, JTo, small PP and that sort of crap.
