11$ hyper turbo, bubble call KQs ?

Hello,
I dont think it is never-ever a call. Really big mistake IMO. Hard to have exact range, everything is player dependant.
kevvu

Originally posted by kevvu
Hello,
I dont think it is never-ever a call. Really big mistake IMO. Hard to have exact range, everything is player dependant.
kevvu

Can you please provide argument when responding not just generalize?
Ranges and such Thanks

Finally here is the important part of the post besides hand for judges:

My questions here are following :

1) Are you ever calling here and if so why?
2) If you are not calling why not?
3) How much of a negative EDGE do you want to take in this spot?
4) What would be your calling range if you fold this?

Based on nash this is clear fold however nash doesn't take into account future game simulation here as well as dynamics of bubble.
If we assume this guy will shove ATC here, we have a call as well as up to 97% range. It all comes down to how much of a negative edge do we want here? Sng wizard sets it to -0.20 in this situation. Would you take larger -ev call here or fold ?

P.S. This can be call and saying that never ever is a call is a big mistake imo.

its tough to evaluate the ICM accurately here because of the extreme short stacks, the pot odds start to skew the calculation.

and the FGS is also really tricky because you have 2 hands before your next BB. so its basically impossible to do any sort of reliable calculation.

In general the ICM will under-estimate the value of folding because the BB will take another immediate hit to his stack next hand in the SB (which ICM does not see in this hand). Therefore, you should not be looking to take a negative edge here especially because the BB is blinding out first.

so just do a basic calculation in wizard (not nash) with BTN push/fold, BB call and BB overcall and do not call too much outside that range (maybe 1 or 2 hands is acceptable).

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
its tough to evaluate the ICM accurately here because of the extreme short stacks, the pot odds start to skew the calculation.

and the FGS is also really tricky because you have 2 hands before your next BB. so its basically impossible to do any sort of reliable calculation.

In general the ICM will under-estimate the value of folding because the BB will take another immediate hit to his stack next hand in the SB (which ICM does not see in this hand). Therefore, you should not be looking to take a negative edge here especially because the BB is blinding out first.

so just do a basic calculation in wizard (not nash) with BTN push/fold, BB call and BB overcall and do not call too much outside that range (maybe 1 or 2 hands is acceptable).

Thank you very much for this useful response!
I did calculations and KQs is a call if btn shoves ATC obviously
I did calculations in SNG wiz and holdem calculator, holdem calculator I used nash ranges here are the results:

3)KQs hand BTN chip leader wide unknown 15bb, SB hero 2-3bb , BB 2.3bb 29/7

BTN nash shove : 66.2%, 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q4o+ J2s+ J7o+ T2s+ T7o+ 94s+ 97o+ 84s+ 86o+ 74s+ 76o 63s+ 65o 53s+ 43s
SB hero nash call: 3%, 99+ AKs
SB FGS call: 3%, 99+ AKs
BB overcalls nash and FGS: 1.4%, QQ+
If sb folds bb call nash: 35.3%, 33+ Ax+ K3s+ K6o+ Q7s+ Q9o+ J9s+ JTo T9s
IF SB folds bb call FGS: 48.5%, 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q6o+ J7s+ J8o+ T7s+ T9o 98s

Obviously this is rather fold than call because when we are not sure that btn is shoving ATC then its better to fold then to risk busting out