Originally posted by Desultory
Because you have been helpful I want to give you a piece of advice. Its impossible to say this is good advice given the information shown but I reckon if you fold 50%-25% of the hands that you like to call post flop (i.e. take the worst 25% of the hands you usually call in a spot and fold them). This might broadly make a difference to your blue line. Obvious every spot is different so this isn't the best advice ever, but overall I think this MAY make a positive difference to you at micro levels. Maybe not though - because its so broad it may end up being a hindrance to your play. Up to you if you think its worth a try
Then re post with your new blue line after a bit of a sample.
Thanx for the advice, I will work on my WTSD, and try to decrease it as much as possible, and stop donating money to others ♦
Originally posted by DannyJQ
No Filters:
With VPIP Filter:
I'm not sure if I started running that bad or just playing bad? I assume its kinda combination of both, but would like to know more. Discuss and let me know if u need any stats
Yes around 58.5k hands your blue line randomly slacks off after being consistently up before. This is exactly what I'm thinking is bad run variance. Then the last 2.5k or so its picked up to normal OR maybe run good. Haven't worked out what run good is yet
Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
Think his high WTSD is absolutely the reason for his red line and poor results. If he'd start folding more red line winrate would naturally decrease and blue line increase due to not paying off as often with weak holdings.
I was thinking red line shouldn't be effected by higher calldowns. At least not to the extent that it is approx twice as high as ours. I was thinking he has to be betting to win without showdown much more. But if he does fold less than us that will have an effect on redline as he will have less losses won without showdown. I was just thinking it won't have as much impact as it has, if that is actually the case.
nmilan84, would you mind confirming;
1)Do you raise post flop a lot?
2) I would assume you don't barrel off after raising post flop given you have an in order turn barrel%?
3) Do you bet every time someone checks to you and then barrel off? I.e. bet vs missed cbet is high.
Given you have high WTSD. It is hard to try and determine what proportion of your blue line losses are mainly due to run bad or calling too much. If blue line represents anything at all.
Originally posted by Desultory
Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
nmilan84, would you mind confirming;
1)Do you raise post flop a lot?
2) I would assume you don't barrel off after raising post flop given you have an in order turn barrel%?
3) Do you bet every time someone checks to you and then barrel off? I.e. bet vs missed cbet is high.Given you have high WTSD. It is hard to try and determine what proportion of your blue line losses are mainly due to run bad or calling too much. If blue line represents anything at all.
1) My post flop raise is 18, fold 40, c/r 16
2) post flop bets, calls, c/call, c/f all around 40
3) Bets vs skip bet all around 50I definitely call too much, but I hope some of the blue line downswing goes to running bad
, once I get a hang of my game, I will post an (hopefully ♠_cool: ) improved blue line graph here on this thread, as well as in my blog, if this thread isn't alive anymore (cause I think I need at least one month to get some results). what do you think is proper hand sample for improvements to show? 10k?
Originally posted by Stu24023
Im am embarressed about this graph, but i think i will get the right kind of motivation from it.
Cool, another decreasing blue line. Again, same as nimlan84 in that it is lower than red line and not increasing. Stu24023; do you have WTSD > 30%??
P.s. Nothing to be embarrassed about imo. Everyone has to start somewhere. Also, the sample size is much smaller than other graphs.
what do you think is proper hand sample for improvements to show? 10k?
In regards to monetary results, I personally don't think you can get improvements to show even after 1million hands because of variance. But in regards to this blue line, I am unsure. Maybe 20k hands which would equal approx 5k VPIP hands? Maybe 50k hands. I say this based off Stu24023's graph, which seems to show an accurate depiction of a down blue line. But can't be sure tbh.
If this thread is dead by then - send me a message please.
If you completely revamp your game though, there may be big differences in redline blue line. For selfish experimentation reasons, I'd rather you just start folding more and not change your game too much otherwise. From stats, it doesn't seem like you are doing anything terrible on average anyway - just calling way too much.
Originally posted by Stu24023
Coach,My WTSD% is 27.5
My W$SD& is 41.9
WTSD within normal bounds for regs I think, but on the higher side certainly.
W$SD super super low. Maybe you are the aggro barreler I was theorising earlier? Or maybe this could mean you run bad. If your cbet flop, cbet turn, raiseflop, bet vs missed cbet stats are all in normal ranges then I am confident you run bad over this sample. Even if you are extremely aggro 41% is very low so I think without doubt you run bad.
Nearly all my samples where my W$SD is this low have resulted in lower win rates. I have one discrepancy where I had decent win rate with low W$Sd. Very difficult to say if this is an indicator of run bad alone, but I think grouped with other things, maybe.
Originally posted by Desultory
Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
Think his high WTSD is absolutely the reason for his red line and poor results. If he'd start folding more red line winrate would naturally decrease and blue line increase due to not paying off as often with weak holdings.I was thinking red line shouldn't be effected by higher calldowns. At least not to the extent that it is approx twice as high as ours. I was thinking he has to be betting to win without showdown much more. But if he does fold less than us that will have an effect on redline as he will have less losses won without showdown. I was just thinking it won't have as much impact as it has, if that is actually the case.
Think ~6-7% deviation from standard WTSD gotta save up a ton of NSD losses over time. The other thing to consider is the stakes he's playing, which is lower than ours and from my experience on softer, more passive games it's way easier to have better red line. So he doesn't really have to be out of line when it comes to barreling etc.
I'd guess if you were to play NL10 without really changing up your gameplay at all, you'd prob have an awesome red line.
Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
The other thing to consider is the stakes he's playing, which is lower than ours and from my experience on softer, more passive games it's way easier to have better red line. So he doesn't really have to be out of line when it comes to barreling etc.I'd guess if you were to play NL10 without really changing up your gameplay at all, you'd prob have an awesome red line.
Good point about passive games. If true, you would expect everyone playing at those limits to have a very high redline as well. Staktas earlier on was playing NL2 and NL5 and his redline was not super high though... Hendo2000 NL2-NL10 also not that high of a red line.
Axelphony's relative redline was even higher than nmilla84 actually.
If any of you previous guys(if you haven't already) and future posters could say your;
Limits played,
WTSD,
W$SD,
WWSF,
cbet flop%,
cbet turn%.
That would be helpful to me to try and decipher if there is anything to decipher.
Originally posted by Lucker9200
Filtered
What can be said about these?
As of right now what I think they could mean;
Redline relatively high but consistent on VPIP graph meaning you have played a consistent way over the sample.
So far blue line under red line means you have a high WTSD: 27% + I would guess?
I suspect you ran very good from 5k-10k hands shown as approx 1k-2k hands on the filter.
Other than that I can't tell you much. I'm still trying to find patterns with everyone. I need people to post the stats requested above, to determine more.
Originally posted by Rihard4a
The graph I posted was for NL2-NL10. And was playing standard TAG.
Thank you. Yep so I don't think passive games = high redline unless you hendo and Staktas are super tight. I doubt that though.
Whats your
WTSD,
W$SD,
WWSF,
cbet flop%,
cbet turn%??
Originally posted by 3prswins
My lines cross around 10k hands ago, must've been where I started to play MSS??
There is a slight gradient change in red line around 33k hands so as of now, I think that means a change in strategy. If you did start to play MSS around then in change from before then that back up my suspicions here.
I think blue line will respond to the redline change in strategy, which is why it makes it slightly more difficult to purely analyse the more variant blue line in itself.
Your blue line changes gradient a little after the redline gradient change so its difficult to say where you may have run bad,run good,run normal etc OR if its a result in this change of play. Because the blue line has been a consistent gradient shortly after the change of strategy.
Originally posted by Lucker9200
Limits played nl25-50
WTSD 22.9
W$SD 49.5
WWSF 46
cbet flop 68.6
cbet turn 48.1
My wtsd isnt 27+ but its possible for my blue line to be such cause I ~~often experiment w plays w whole stack or?
Filtered hands:
Spoiler
Not filtered hands:
Spoiler
Limits played: nl5 eur tables only
WTSD: 24.2
W$SD: 55.3
WWSF: 41.1
cbet flop%: 58.9
cbet turn%: 45.6
This is a vary small smaple, but would be greatfull for any thought on the often crossing red/blue lines. Also id like to know preliminar ranges of stats posted above.
Originally posted by zumpar
how can i filter this in PT4?More Filters>> Hand details, check Player is Hero to ON. then go to Actions and opportunities - Preflop >> Voluntarily put money in the pot ON.