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[PLO 6max] chooochooo - PLO25

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Skodljivec
Joined: 17.12.2011

Great work!

It's a really good feeling when someone shows that graph after coachings with you haha.

Keep it up!


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

haha true, do you want me to post that graph into your coaching thread? :P

Todays session didnt went to well, too:

It wasnt that long, as I was doing some handreviews with others, which was pretty interesting.

Overall I am below EV of about 5 buyins and down 4. I think I will use 20 stacks for the shot as I feel I can easily beat this limit, but there were so many awkward spots and I felt I was even running bad in the setups scenarios.

I will also do some more theory the next days to be prepared when I activate my reload bonus. This will be a small challenge for me (I will need about 19k hands at PLO25, and 33k on PLO10).


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

Exercise

Intro

Skodljivec gave me an exercise to write down my thought process about villains Line in the following hand.
I must say, its a pretty weired line and I still have troubles to identify a range or even a single hand that makes sense here. In order to learn the thought process and to work with propokertools, Ill present my way to think about the hand. I am really looking forward to see some comments from you, about my thought process, the hand itself and your oppinions in genereal.

Hand

$0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ShaShouNO1 ($188.92) 189bb
CO Hero ($223.62) 224bb
BTN acorn26 ($29.69) 30bb
SB Alex_d123 ($59) 59bb
BB absolutD37 ($100) 100bb

Pre-Flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is CO A♥ J♣ A♣ K♣
ShaShouNO1 raises to $3, Hero raises to $10.50, 3 folds, ShaShouNO1 calls $7.50

Flop: 4♠ 8♥ 2♥ ($22.50, 2 players)
ShaShouNO1 checks, Hero bets $17, ShaShouNO1 calls $17

Turn: 6♥ ($56.50, 2 players)
ShaShouNO1 bets $18.50, Hero raises to $55, ShaShouNO1 calls $36.50

River: 4♦ ($166.50, 2 players)
ShaShouNO1 goes all-in $106.42, Hero folds

Final Pot: $166.50

ShaShouNO1 wins $270.12 (net +$81.20)

Hero lost $82.50

Villain: 21/13/4 - 400h - weak TAG / NIT
Hero: will 3bet a bit wider, as they are deep, although villain is tight

Brainstorming

Flop
Villain could x/c weak draws like a weak FD, wraps like 567 with BDFD, FD with GS + Pair
He could also x/c sets to x/r blank turns. He can think that Hero will often barrel this board, as it has not hit villains range very much, given that he is so tight.
He could also think that Hero will barrel alot of turns, basically any overcard that hits.
So he might want to take the Equity shift line here.
He might x/c weak toppairs to go with some BDFD or GS type of hands.

Turn
His small bet might have two reasons:
1. Betting to drawy cheaply
2. Betting to get value from hands that might xb

If he has the set and planned to x/r safe turns, this might be a scarecard for him where he doesnt want hero to barrel big. He might think, Hero will not raise without the NF or the NF Blocker (if at all).
He also might bet his low flushes to get value from possible straights and sets or even OP with GS or something.
His turn call is somewhat odd given the two reasons to bet.
For reason 1, he might think that hero will bluff wider anyway, so he does not want to fold the best hand (its very inconsistent)
For reason 2, he might believe the same and just try to let hero bluff and keep his range wide.
He could also have a low flush along with a twopair, where he merges both, value and drawing, like 8764hh

River
There are two reasons to shove here:
1. betting for value, because nothing will bet itself (which isnt true)
2. turning his hand into a bluff

He might think that Hero wont bet himself with a Flush but call.
He might think that Hero can fold the NF as Villain can rep the rivered boat.

Nothing is really consistent to each other. For me right now, the only hand that I can really think of is a hand like 8764hh, which still seems odd.

Evaluation

I assume optimistic ranges, based on villains stats and the hand strength with the propokertools ranking in combination.

Villain is playing 21/13 and opens from MP with a TAG behind him, who will 3bet some percentage of the time. He wont be super loose in his close decissions of opening hands.
I will give him the following range:

which results to 12% PFR in MP, which I think is realistic.

I assume he will only 4bet super strong AA, like: AARR$ds, AA$R$R$ds and call all others.

So first of all lets see how often he will have a set on the flop:

0,22% of his range will make sets (594 combos).

Lets see how often he will have a TwoPair with a 4 with hearts:

0,04% of his range will make a twopair with a 4 and with hearts (118 combos)

So given the combos and percentages, its REALLY rare that he will come up with such a hand, but still, its possible.
I hoped to see there arent any combinations like this possible, but there are. Even if I take the top 12% of propokertools ranking:

Summary

I dont come up with a logical range, but the most possible range might be:

  • lower flushes which he turns into a bluff on the river vs possibel NF
  • sets which he wanted to draw cheaply on the turn
  • combo hands like 8764hh, where wanted to get value on turn but bluffcatched with the flush and redrawed with the TwoPair
  • random hand, as he was just drunk and clicking buttons

I am not very happy with the analysis of the hand as it seems pretty random and no real ranges could be defined.
I would love to read comments from you on what to improve!


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JonikoP
Joined: 15.05.2010

Nice blog Sir. I'm in a similar position so will defo be following!

The turn action makes no sense to me in the hand below. It looks like a weakish blocker bet.

A turned set of 66xx perhaps? Maybe a turned flush with some backdoor equity (2 pair or set) that makes a boat on the river? I can't see a nitty TAG taking this line with anything other than a house on the river (given that we hold A :heart:).

He probably c/r sets on the flop (although he may just call here given that it's deep and try to wait for a safe turn).

It would help to know Villain's perception of Hero. It would also help to know Villain's fold to 3-bet and fold to c-bet in 3-bet pot (which affects Hero's 3-betting range).

I don't know PPT syntax so can't comment on your ranges :f_cry:


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Hortberg
Joined: 16.07.2009

Isn't it easier to write 12%!AARR$ds,AA$R$R$ds in propokertools?
And did you account for the deadcards in propokertools(heros hand, shouldn't change the outcome though)?

Originally posted by Kreatief
lower flushes which he turns into a bluff on the river vs possibel NF

I think this.
Those low PP is never in his 3beting defending range OOP. (you did also prove that i's unlikely even if he had them) and they are never in heros range.

He needs hero to fold 29% of the time to make this a +ev shove, sometime he might even gets called by dry aces.


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

thanks both.

@JonikoP, its really worth learning the syntax. Just check the syntax help on ppt.

@Hortberg, sure its easier and thats what I did in the last screenshot. But I wanted to give him my own range, which might include more playable hands than those that are just built of equity preflop. That was just an exercise for me to think about ranges.


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Skodljivec
Joined: 17.12.2011

Great analysis.

This is actually my own hand played yesterday, when villain confused the shit out of me with his line. Obv we are taking the same line with our A blocker than we would wit our nut flush ott.

What villain thinks of me? Who knows. He is chinese, he folds to 60% cbets in 3b pots. This deep i think he folds even more probably. I think there are 0 bluffs in his range for the record tough. River is probably a made hand. The way the hand got to the river is wierd as hell tough.

Regards,

Skodljivec


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Hortberg
Joined: 16.07.2009

Did not notice the 12% in the last, my bad.

Good analysis


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

I dont like hero's betsizing ott. If villain has a set, hero just gives him the odds to call. The only reason is to induce something, which seems funny with just a blocker.

To call that raise, villain needs 22%. With a set he gets around 24%. Might not look like a big deal, but when villain has a set hero's raise is actually -EV. While making it slightly bigger it has at least the potential to be +EV.


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Skodljivec
Joined: 17.12.2011

Originally posted by Kyyberi
I dont like hero's betsizing ott. If villain has a set, hero just gives him the odds to call. The only reason is to induce something, which seems funny with just a blocker.

To call that raise, villain needs 22%. With a set he gets around 24%. Might not look like a big deal, but when villain has a set hero's raise is actually -EV. While making it slightly bigger it has at least the potential to be +EV.

So basically you are saying 100% of villains range here are sets? That's what makes most sense to you when villain takes this line? Oh i have a set on a drawy flop deep so i'll just CALL. Now the worst card for my set comes ott, so i'll decide to DONK-CALL cause it's fun?

Regards,

Skodljivec


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

I just played a small session today. I didnt have to much time and used some time to watch another Skodljivec video.

I missplayed two hands (already discussed them with some midstakes player):

1.

Villain seemed like a weak / nitty player, towards fish.

$0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($57.53) 230bb
CO ($53.45) 214bb
BTN ($19.53) 78bb
Hero (SB) ($31.81) 127bb
BB ($28.83) 115bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is SB K♠ K♣ 5♦ J♣
2 folds, BTN calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75

Flop: A♣ 10:spade: 3♣ ($3, 3 players)
Hero bets $2.10, BB calls $2.10, BTN folds

Turn: 3♥ ($7.20, 2 players)
Hero bets $5, BB calls $5

River: 9♠ ($17.20, 2 players)
Hero bets $11, BB calls $11

Final Pot: $39.20
Hero shows two pair, Kings and Threes
K♠ K♣ 5♦ J♣
BB shows a full house, Threes full of Tens
9♥ 10:diamond: J♦ 3♠

BB wins $37.53 (net +$18.43)

BTN lost $1
Hero lost $19.10

2.

Villain donked alot of turns on a few hands.

$0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($12.11) 48bb
Hero (CO) ($33.31) 133bb
BTN ($35.74) 143bb
SB ($9.66) 39bb
BB ($17.99) 72bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is CO 10:spade: A♥ Q♠ A♠
UTG calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.10, 2 folds, BB calls $0.85, UTG folds

Flop: 3♠ 7♣ 6♦ ($2.55, 2 players)
BB bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: J♠ ($5.05, 2 players)
BB bets $4.84, Hero calls $4.84

River: A♦ ($14.73, 2 players)
BB goes all-in $10.80, Hero calls $10.80

Final Pot: $36.33
BB shows a straight, Three to Seven
5♠ J♦ 4♥ A♣
Hero shows three of a kind, Aces
10:spade: A♥ Q♠ A♠

BB wins $34.79 (net +$16.80)

UTG lost $0.25
Hero lost $17.99

I am somewhat dissapointed about it. :(
So learning more seems necessary .


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JonikoP
Joined: 15.05.2010

Hand 1, I don't think I'd bluff the river. It's a pretty dry board and you block the K :club: draw so I'm not sure what gets to the river that will call with worse or fold better. Especially not for that sizing. If you want to rep AAxx I'd probably pot the flop and then half pot or even check the turn.

Hand 2, looks well played to me. Interested to hear what Skodljivec thinks.

Edit: the turn bet is really big so you can maybe fold there. Still, you're beating his pair+straight draws and you might get some value if you hit your backdoor flush.


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

Thank you and yeah I agree.

Today I activated my bonus and started the grind. Couldnt get in to many hands as I was watching soccer later on.

I am very unhappy with my session. It felt like the first session of PLO25 this month. I couldnt hit a thing, had to fold so often, got raised often and I believe I also didnt play that well. Everything just dropped, my redline looks horrible. I just dont know what happened... again.

I will have to review hands tomorrow before playing the first session and post them. I will also have to watch more videos and learn even more. I am not happy with being a breakeven player or slightly winningplayer. I want to crush. And I know that its possible, even with the given rake.
If I am not able to crush PLO25, I wont be able to become a good PLO100 winner, which is my goal for the next months. So alot of work has to be done.


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Skodljivec
Joined: 17.12.2011

Don't worry about the redline. Mine was terrible at these stakes. There's just no need for it to be good, because you should focus playing vs fish, and fish don't usually fold at these stakes.

I actually don't know of a single PLO player who has a positive redline, no matter the limit :)

Just keep grinding, learning, and the results will come.

Regards,

Skodljivec


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

I dont really know how to handle it. Should I just ignore the redline at all? Should I care about any line? True, there are alot of times where you can do nothing and the graph looks like bad play or tilt, but its more often a sign for bad play than for variance imo if you are still a learning fish like me ;)

First work done by posting hands from yesterday, and would like to here your opinions:

  1. [PLO25 SH] AJJ* vs small l/r
  2. [PLO25 SH] NFD 3way
  3. [PLO25 SH] 2nd NFD + GS vs turn raise deep
  4. [PLO25 SH] QJTTss vs two Limpers

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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

Once again, an absolute horrible session (at least the second half).

I couldnt do a f* thing. I think I played well, but today was fishtime. I couldnt hit a single 3bet pot, had to fold so so often in mw pots and got sucked out on like this (awesome flop call):

$0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($24.71) 99bb
UTG+1 ($9.89) 40bb
CO ($21.98) 88bb
Hero (BTN) ($25.93) 104bb
SB ($28.02) 112bb
BB ($52.76) 211bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN K♦ 10:club: Q♣ Q♦
2 folds, CO raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $1.85, 2 folds, CO calls $1.35

Flop: J♥ 8♦ 6♦ ($4.05, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3, CO calls $3

Turn: 3♥ ($10.05, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $9.62, CO calls $9.62

River: K♥ ($29.29, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $29.29
CO shows a flush, Ace high
4♦ 2♣ A♥ Q♥
Hero shows
K♦ 10:club: Q♣ Q♦

CO wins $28.05 (net +$13.58)

Hero lost $14.47

PLO25 overall since shot:

I still believe I run terrible even setup wise, so I hope I will run at least normal for some time, as I dont want to move down anymore (but will do if I have to, obv).


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

Month recap

I dont care about recaps of time period except for the daily once as they give me immediate feedback.
Anyways:

Moneywise it was a bad month, but that doesnt count. I moved up to PLO25 and its definetly beatable for me. The first 5k hands were mostly strange. I will need some more time to prove to be a winner at this limit.

Apart from that I did alot for my game. I had two coaching hours, watched some videos, posted hands, talked about hands with a friend and was listening to highstakes players while they were disucssing hands.

Still I think I am learning slowly and need to find a way to improve that.

For the next month my goals are to stay at PLO25 and stabilize my BR.
Apart from that I want to watch alot of Tom Coldwells videos, discuss alot of hands, record at least two videos and post more hands.

GL to all of you!


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

Not running very well at PLO25:

and a fun hand:

$0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 Players

Stacks:
UTG ($26.75) 107bb
UTG+1 ($25) 100bb
Hero (CO) ($62.97) 252bb
BTN ($34.41) 138bb
SB ($84.32) 337bb
BB ($21.75) 87bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is CO 5♣ 10:heart: 10:club: A♥
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, BTN raises to $2.90, SB calls $2.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.05

Flop: 9♣ 10:diamond: 6♣ ($8.95, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $8.57, SB raises to $34.28, Hero goes all-in $60.07, BTN goes all-in $22.94, SB calls $25.79

Turn: 7♥ ($160.60, 3 players, 2 all-in)

River: 8♣ ($160.60, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $160.60
Hero shows a flush, Ten high
5♣ 10:heart: 10:club: A♥
BTN shows a straight, Seven to Jack
7♦ 9♠ J♦ 8♠
SB shows a flush, Queen high
Q♣ A♦ J♥ J♣

SB wins $158.60 (net +$95.63)

Hero lost $62.97
BTN lost $34.41


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

Not running too well, but EV looks ok.
I think I will take another 10 stacks at PLO25 before moving down. Then I would have like 75 stacks left for PLO10.
Hopefully I am not running 50 stacks below EV again ;)

Wish me luck.


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Kreatief
Joined: 28.01.2006

Todays session

Not much to say. I am not hitting very well and if I hit I get sucked out on ;)
Hope it will turn around soon.

I also have done some theory today.


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