Feedback Thread: 180 man Coaching w/ Tomsom87

Just installed TN2 and something isn't quite working right. Also my HUD is still lagging when I open more than 15 tables so going to have a slight change of pace from the brutal mashing of buttons I did last week.

This week we will be doing something a bit easier on the eyes and brain, some 8 tabling of 180 mans with some HH reviews on the side. If you have a HH you would like to me review on the side (and you are attending the session this evening), could you please email me a HH from a 180 man in advance (where you got HU) so I can review it for you on the side.

Email: somerville.poker at gmail dot com

Will be first come first served and I will just work my way through them in the session. For those who asked about private coaching its a great opportunity for a free review ♦

Looking forward to it!!!!!

Unfortunately there will be no session this week as I will not be at home due to other commitments.

Hi Everyone

Unfortunately Tom's not going to be able to make today's coaching so we are looking at re-scheduling it for this Friday at 22:00 CET

The coach is missing so far.
Anyone a idea where he is?

Originally posted by Boomer2k10
Hi Everyone

Unfortunately Tom's not going to be able to make today's coaching so we are looking at re-scheduling it for this Friday at 22:00 CET

damn.....took some time to see you message.... tupid, that nobody could edit the coaching time before it started....some people are going to cry....me too.... ;-/

From now on I will have a new fixed slot on Tuesday night at the later time of 9pm GMT. I have decided this will be better because I will be 3/4 hours into my session and if all is going well, should have a few sweats and tournaments at different stages so should be able to get some varied material out there.

The plan moving forward is for me to produce a video a week with a bit more in depth content and some actual analysis of spots, and then Tuesday sessions will be just grinding and seeing how the theory plays out. I will try and update this thread a bit more too with some updates as to how I am doing in the games etc.

Hi Tomson,

I assume that this is going ahead tonight?

Steve

The coaching is scheduled will take place today

Further information can be found here:
http://www.pokerstrategy.com/coaching/

Regards,
Asaban

Asaban has beat me to it, but yes it will be taking place.

As a bit of follow up to the KJo raise call for 19bb eff. I had the guy as reshoving wide, and I have found a note saying that he has done with this 44 and QJo. So from this we can assume he will be shoving fairly liberally in this spot.

If we give him a shoving range that includes these hands, and I would be quite happy to give him a few more given his 13% global 3b stat, I came up with this range:

22+,A2+,K4s+,K7o+,Q8s+,QTo+,J9s+,JTo,T9s,98s,87s

If we assume this range, KJo nets us +3473.6 chips

I have also compiled a narrower range that just includes QJo (the worst hand we know he has shoved in this situation), and I get:

22+,A2+,K4s+,K8o+,Q9s+,QJo,JTs

If we assume this range, KJo nets us +1439.3 chips

So in my mind this seems like a really profitable spot to call it off & were in the sweet position that if we win the pot, we have half the chips in play and ridiculously strong position in the tournament where we more than likely go on to make a top 3 finish & even if we lose, we still have a 10bb stack.

great coaching...and I have same problem with tn2 that it is why I decide to not use it. Anyway, do you do handjudging too?

Great coaching, chaos, but to be fair I want to see what the real world is like for a grinder, thanks.

Steve

Originally posted by maxtere
great coaching...and I have same problem with tn2 that it is why I decide to not use it. Anyway, do you do handjudging too?

Currently only Tiltberger and chenny are regular hand judges. If I find the time I tune in as well. All of our coaches will not evaluate hands on a regular basis but might participate in discussions from time to time.

Regards,
Asaban

I don't generally do hand judging and don't really get time to browse round the forum. However if you wanted me to look at the occasional hand feel free to post it in here (or link me to the post so you can other opinions too) and I will make sure that I get round to commenting on it.

Yeh last nights session didn't go too well in terms of organisation. I wouldn't have bothered grinding normally as I just wanted to go to bed, but hey ho. Also starting the session with 35 tables was a bit of an extreme too. But yeh sometimes things go wrong and you just have to deal with it the best you can. Somehow managed to play really bad and still have a profitable session.

That's 2x winning live sessions on the bounce now. Hopefully make it 3 next week.

Hey tomson87, I've been watching your videos and attended one of your coachings and you seem to have low respect for ICM in general even at the final table. Could you possibly explain this a little here or on the next coaching or video? Or direct me to where you speak about it if I'm missing something?

I know you tax calls a little but you still seem to be able to push wider then $EV Nash and don't sweat it to much.

Really like your vids btw, thanks!

Hi Lint,

I am starting to respect ICM a little more than I previously did, but unless the situation is really extreme, I would tend to just go with a shove that is +cEV and play for the win a bit more. I can't really show why I think its correct to have little respect for it, other than the regs who do the best in these games seem to be the ones who's finish distribution contains more top 3 finishes. By ignoring ICM in some spots, I think we can give ourselves a better chance at playing for the top 3 spots.

Most of the regs with the highest ROI's have finish distributions that look like this and I would take advantage of players who're playing much tighter and laddering by putting pressure on them at every available opportunity (within reason of course).

Interestingly, I just recorded a video with a really interesting FT where I maybe took this idea to the extreme (to the extent of it more likely than not being terrible). Would be interesting to hear just how much you hate some of the lines I took when it's released. Sorry I can't really give a definitive reason though, I feel like this has been a bit of a wash out answer!

Thanks for the positive feedback, it's always appreciated. GL at the tables.

Thanks! I'm looking forward to the video.

I started playing more by cEV mode and by "no such thing as having less then 5BB" and variance just exploded in my games, the swings doubled in my average day, but certainly feels a lot more profitable to play this way.

Hi tomsom87, I have always thought one of my big edges in the 180s and MTTs is my knowledge of ICM as most regs seem to disregard it, and end up playing too loose (according to ICM anyway!).

Could you show some more evidence that the best regs disregard ICM in some spots, as ICM is something I spend a fair amount of time studying and I am open to the idea of giving it less credit if it means making more money.

The top heavy win distribution of the best regs might be due to them getting to the final tables with a bigger stack and being able to pressure shorter players who are ICM aware or players that are trying to ladder.

You say that you take advantage of tight players, but this is exactly what ICM advocates.

Would like to hear any feedback/discussion of these ideas as it's an interesting topic, cheers!

It is a very interesting topic and one that would be really difficult to provide a comprehensive answer for. There will always be varying opinions on the topic and no doubt they will change in the coming years. My opinions on some things change on a daily basis ♦

You kind of touched on the main reason that I disregard ICM pre final table. Getting to the final table with a huge chiplead gives you great opportunity to make it to the final 3 and a decent shot at the top prize. I would definitely advocate pushing your edges pre final table for this reason, we would be much better of making the top 3 once than ladder to 6th-9th ten times. I have had a few tournaments recently where I played them with ICM in mind, where I just got completely tied to a short stack and ended up blinding away waiting for a guy with 1bb to bust who just wouldn't die!!!

Once we make the final table, I would certainly be at least a little aware of ICM when it comes to calling shoves (as we have to aware that some opps will be shoving tighter than pre ft and that our chips are worth much more to us in our stack then chucking them in in some marginal spot), but I would be taking all my opportunites to open shove, especially in situations where you shoving into smaller / similarly sized stacks as you will have loads more fold equity, especially if a really short stack has already folded.

I totally agree about edges pre final table, I generally play chipEV until FT to try to get to the top prizes!

I agree about shoving chipEV into smaller stacks because ICM tax is only a few percent, and villains, even bad ones, are probably aware of their risk aversion against us.

But I am not making chipEV shoves with a big stack from my SB into the big stack reg who is not FULLY ICM aware. ICM says we need ~70% equity vs some bigger stacks and it seems like we are owning ourselves shoving in spots like this. There are some truly grotesque ICM taxes vs certain stacks, even when there aren't shorties about to croak it. I don't think we can ignore these.