Skip to forum
Coaching: Third Flo...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Coaching: Third Floor Problems with Boomer - NOW Starting 18/04/2014 @ 19:00CET

52 Posts
7 Users
0 Reactions
9,295 Views
YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Think about it this way: The part of the opponents range against which you actually have value isn't going to call often. But that part of his range is pretty likely to bluff on the river. The pot isn't gigantic, even if it is 3-bet, so "giving a free card" with KQs doesn't seem all that disastrous.


Reply
Quote
Boomer2k10
Joined: 22.09.2010

KQs is one of the worst hands in your range here and considering the hands worse than it are suited and thus have less combos then checking back and calling here is pretty obviously wrong.

This is definitely a tough spot and you either need to have a WIDE checking range (i.e. check back pairs) or you need to double barrel here with pretty much your whole range.

But let's assume your figures are correct for the sake of arguement, that means his pre-flop opening range is something like this:

66+,A5s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo\

Since he didn't cap your PF raise that makes his range on the flop something like this:

77-66,A9s-A3s,K9s-K7s,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,AJo-A8o,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

Note it could be a little tighter than this due to the fact we've represented a lot of strength but this is a "sake of arguement" calc:

Our 3-betting range should look something like this vs a 22% open:

66+,A8s+,KJs+,A9o+,KQo

...would I object to throwing QJs or KTs in there? Probably not but be careful and realise where they are in your range.

This means on the flop we are:


Board: 6♦5♦3♥
       Equity     Win     Tie
SB     29.90%  27.59%   2.32% { 77-66, A9s-A3s, K9s-K7s, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, AJo-A8o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
BB     70.10%  67.78%   2.32% { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }

So 70/30 ahead in a range on range analysis so therefore C-betting is obviously correct here, we have an advantage.....

SIDENOTE:

If our opponent does not cap we're still 61/39 ahead on this board so again, simple c-bet.

Btw this is what splitting your range does on certain boards, especially in early position battles....you've missed this board pretty much always and now you have a super weak range you're probably going to get value bet to death with.

You will actually notice from here both players played their hands perfectly in terms of where they are in their range

Kav is so low in his range that 3-barrelling is pretty much all he's got here, although given how narrow range a spot this is I imagine some combos of KQ are check back and folds on the turn

His opponent makes what appears to be a horrific calldown vs Kavs range but he's put himself in that position by having a split range preflop and now ATo is actually one of his best hands and showing it down UI is pretty much mandatory.

Now the ranges may not be this extreme, HJ may open 25% in and only cap 4% vs a 3-bet vs a HJ open but the point remains, kav's choice here is probably "3-barrel some, 2 barell and give up some and check back and fold some" in terms of his KQ combos and his opponent has missed the board because he doesn't have TT-AA in his range and he's opening from the HJ so he has Overpair or nothing.


Reply
Quote
kavboj84
Joined: 16.06.2011

Originally posted by YohanN7
Think about it this way: The part of the opponents range against which you actually have value isn't going to call often. But that part of his range is pretty likely to bluff on the river. The pot isn't gigantic, even if it is 3-bet, so "giving a free card" with KQs doesn't seem all that disastrous.

Well if he doesnt call those hands that justifies the bluff on the turn even more thats an any2 bet then, because he didnt cap preflop so he doesnt have AK,AQ, he didnt donk and didnt xr so on the flop, so the best hands he can have is A5, 44, AJ (maybe he'd even donk some of these on the flop). So he must call the turn with every A high, KQ, plus 8-10 weaker flushdraw combos. AT has 52% equity against this and it is very unlikely that we get xr-d here, so its tempting for a free SD bet:


Board: 6♦5♦3♥ 5♠
       Equity     Win     Tie
BU     48.68%  40.74%   7.94% { 44, A3s+, KQs, KdJd, QdJd, KdTd, QdTd, Kd9d, Qd9d, Jd9d, 9d8d, 8d7d, Ad2d, A7o+, KQo }
BB     51.32%  43.39%   7.94% { ATo }

But as I mentioned my original assumption is that I'd x back up to AT-s on the turn with the intention of calling the river. And so I have ~14% bluffs in my range which is correct for the turn:

So yeah I still think that the turn bet was fine as I assumed originally but the river may not be, because the 4 didnt help me a lot( except 77) but did him (A7,A2s,44,) also he needs to fold up to A8, resulting that I can bet so thinly for value now as before, I'd still have to bet/fold AQ tho :


Board: 6♦5♦3♥ 5♠ 4♠
       Equity     Win     Tie
BU     47.00%  41.38%   5.62% { 44, A9s+, A7s, A4s-A3s, Jd9d, 9d8d, 8d7d, Ad2d, A9o+, A7o }
BB     53.00%  47.38%   5.62% { AQo }

So the only value hand I x back are AJ combos and I that means I should x back some KQs-s from my bluff range as well, but maybe not every one of them.

PS.:

Actually I realised that I made a mistake, cause I left AK and AQ in his range, without those even AJ is a bet on the river:


Board: 6♦5♦3♥ 5♠ 4♠
       Equity     Win     Tie
BU     45.94%  37.90%   8.04% { 44, AJs-A9s, A7s, A4s-A3s, Jd9d, 9d8d, 8d7d, Ad2d, AJo-A9o, A7o }
BB     54.06%  46.03%   8.04% { AJo }


Reply
Quote
YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Ok, just don't agree with population reads (or is this particular to him?) by you and Boomer. Many don't ever cap preflop oop, and many waits until turn to go aggressive. (Not saying it's right, just that people do it.) This would mean AA and every other hand is in his range when he checks on turn.


Reply
Quote
kavboj84
Joined: 16.06.2011

I saw him capping previously (I mentioned it as well). He has a 7% capping range on 1k, so no pop but personal read. Also that I have not seen him slowplaying on this samplesize means that he is not that kind of a guy. If he slowplays he makes it very rarely, and if he x/r-es the turn sometimes it reeks of slowplay and I can b/overfold easily. Its like you added 1-2 combos of AA to his range, doesnt make a difference at all. I accidentally left AK and AQ (=32 combos) in his range for the first time and it only mattered by 1 hand at the bottom of my value range.


Reply
Quote
Boomer2k10
Joined: 22.09.2010

Originally posted by YohanN7
Ok, just don't agree with population reads (or is this particular to him?) by you and Boomer. Many don't ever cap preflop oop, and many waits until turn to go aggressive. (Not saying it's right, just that people do it.) This would mean AA and every other hand is in his range when he checks on turn.

Kav said the guy have a 7% Capping range so that's why i used it :)

Usually I'd assume he doesn't cap OOP and that's why I did the sidenote about why capping screws you up in narrow spots.


Reply
Quote
Boomer2k10
Joined: 22.09.2010

Live in a Couple of minutes guys


Reply
Quote
Boomer2k10
Joined: 22.09.2010

Hey guys

As said in today's coaching I will be finishing up this course next week and then I'll be going on a break while I plan the next course. Hopefully it'll be something worthwhile because I'm not sure if I've achieved what I want with this one tbh

Any suggests besides "Make it Basic" because that just won't happen please put in here


Reply
Quote
Avataren
Joined: 28.04.2010

Originally posted by Boomer2k10
Hey guys

As said in today's coaching I will be finishing up this course next week and then I'll be going on a break while I plan the next course. Hopefully it'll be something worthwhile because I'm not sure if I've achieved what I want with this one tbh

Any suggests besides "Make it Basic" because that just won't happen please put in here

no one said it should be basic if its membership your talking about .. silver + and your ready to go.

my suggestion would be more easy ways to convert math into something you can use on the tables. Not all of us can immediately see $10 bet into $50 gives = whatever odds it is. and think hey i can definitely call this and that.
basically make poker math and ways to convert your own real gameplan onto the tables no matter what happens easier/funnier.

Also a suggestion would be sort of mental game focused what happens when you get mad and why do we explain it and how does it change our game etc

I had quite a few ideas ive sent you boomer on skype but you never write back anymore :'(


Reply
Quote
sneakybeaky
Joined: 01.10.2013

How about some HUHU ?


Reply
Quote
ZeroDegrees
Joined: 03.06.2008

I'd like to see 2-3 handed, or HU tables too.


Reply
Quote
Boomer2k10
Joined: 22.09.2010

Well in fun news I got our resident NL mad scientist Uri "sirrybob" Peleg to play some FL HUSNGs

And he's really liking them :f_biggrin:

So there's a possibility for some content there definitely, it's really interesting seeing a NL player and a very good one at that, and his viewpoint.


Reply
Quote