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100NL cb flop,x/r line shove river

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Yozan
Joined: 01.01.2010

Villain is an average 100NL TAG..

I keep seeing b/calls with FD,how much should I raise .TY!

BTN: $111.23 (111.2 bb)
SB: $109.34 (109.3 bb)
BB: $116.06 (116.1 bb)
Hero (UTG): $106.93 (106.9 bb)
MP: $179.99 (180 bb)
CO: $135.70 (135.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J J
Hero raises to $3, MP calls $3, 4 folds

Flop: ($7.50) J T 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP calls $5

Turn: ($17.50) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $9, Hero raises to $30, MP calls $21

River: ($77.50) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $68.93 and is all-in, MP calls $68.93
TY!


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9 replies
lnternet
Joined: 19.06.2012

Pre is good.

Flop is good, although checking isn't bad either.

Turn check is good. I think most people will be too wide against a check there. He bets all KQ, AQ, FD, Jx, 98, and often even AK, Tx. And if he bets almost always, best to go for a check.

When you raise turn, you should make a size that's close for him when he has KQ or a FD. So not too small. Your size is too small, he has an easy call with KQ and all FDs. You should go maybe to $40-$45, so his A2dd or QJcc or KQhh is in a tough spot.

River, hand is fine up to here. Your river shove is terrible though. It makes absolutely no sense :(. He calls almost no worse hand. JT and 33 will jam turn, if not raised on the flop. AJ/QQ is the only hands which may call you here, and they could easily fold, and aren't many combos. You are getting folds from his busted draws, and calls from his 98 and flushes.

You have to check river. If he shoves, you have a little big of a tough spot, but should be a call. It's 98/clubs for value and KQ/diamonds for bluffs, should be enough bluffs to call.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

1)So in general you suggest choosing raise size
That is for villian borderline to call with
Draws? What size on flop, because it needs to be very large
If we want to give bad odds?

2) how about overbetting turn 2x and shoving river?
Our range is strong and his is cappt so he has not
Odds to call draws and Aj, kjs jqs and qq
Are in though spot. So i would overbet
TT+, 33, JTs (30 combos) together with
KQ, all fd, and would give up rest.

3) if we choose to have c/r range is it ok to bluff AdKo and
AdQo which block his calling combos?


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lnternet
Joined: 19.06.2012

1) In general you want to play in a way which minimizes EV for your opponent. When betting, with typical poker ranges, this often means you want your opponent to not be able to continue too many or too few hands.

If opponent can continue with all hands, you aren't minimizing his EV. You could bet a tighter range or choose a bigger bet size.

If your opponent can't continue with any hand, you aren't minimizing his EV. You could bet more bluffs (bet more often).

So generally, you want to bet with a range where villains range folds and continues "at reasonable frequencies".

On the flop, villain has many hands that fold to our bet size. Low pairs, Axs, some others. So the flop size is certainly fine, as villain folds some reasonable frequency of perhaps 40%.

2) Overbetting makes sense. However, check raising is likely better.

3) Yes. Figuring out which hands to bluff with exactly is not that easy for me though. I think AK/AQ are fine. (Although you surely don't want to bluff check raise too much, which would allow the opponent to continue every single hand)


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

Originally posted by lnternet
1) In general you want to play in a way which minimizes EV for your opponent. When betting, with typical poker ranges, this often means you want your opponent to not be able to continue too many or too few hands.

If opponent can continue with all hands, you aren't minimizing his EV. You could bet a tighter range or choose a bigger bet size.

If your opponent can't continue with any hand, you aren't minimizing his EV. You could bet more bluffs (bet more often).

So generally, you want to bet with a range where villains range folds and continues "at reasonable frequencies".

On the flop, villain has many hands that fold to our bet size. Low pairs, Axs, some others. So the flop size is certainly fine, as villain folds some reasonable frequency of perhaps 40%.

2) Overbetting makes sense. However, check raising is likely better.

3) Yes. Figuring out which hands to bluff with exactly is not that easy for me though. I think AK/AQ are fine. (Although you surely don't want to bluff check raise too much, which would allow the opponent to continue every single hand)

Thanks for the detailed answer. I must admit, I got a bit confused with choosing correct bet size. I know from theory that 3/4 or 2/3 pot bet size give best results, because I guess statistically it is "proven".
I usually like to understand why, for everything I use, and you seem to me that you know math and poker, thats why I ask you.

If you said, when you check/raise turn you want to choose raise size such that it gives bad prize for villian to call with draws. Why not choosing all in, it gives him worst EV to call? Also with going all in, we can even choose more bluffs and stay balanced, so I dont see why should we raise as you suggested and then we need to bluff also some hands on river where bluffs have 0% equity? I guess the reason why not to go instant all in, is that villian in that case needs to defend only low % of hands, which allows him to choose only strong hands?

I hope I dont ask too much, and would like to hear your explanation.


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lnternet
Joined: 19.06.2012

Originally posted by GingerKid

Originally posted by lnternet
1) In general you want to play in a way which minimizes EV for your opponent. When betting, with typical poker ranges, this often means you want your opponent to not be able to continue too many or too few hands.

If opponent can continue with all hands, you aren't minimizing his EV. You could bet a tighter range or choose a bigger bet size.

If your opponent can't continue with any hand, you aren't minimizing his EV. You could bet more bluffs (bet more often).

So generally, you want to bet with a range where villains range folds and continues "at reasonable frequencies".

On the flop, villain has many hands that fold to our bet size. Low pairs, Axs, some others. So the flop size is certainly fine, as villain folds some reasonable frequency of perhaps 40%.

2) Overbetting makes sense. However, check raising is likely better.

3) Yes. Figuring out which hands to bluff with exactly is not that easy for me though. I think AK/AQ are fine. (Although you surely don't want to bluff check raise too much, which would allow the opponent to continue every single hand)

Thanks for the detailed answer. I must admit, I got a bit confused with choosing correct bet size. I know from theory that 3/4 or 2/3 pot bet size give best results, because I guess statistically it is "proven".
I usually like to understand why, for everything I use, and you seem to me that you know math and poker, thats why I ask you.

If you said, when you check/raise turn you want to choose raise size such that it gives bad prize for villian to call with draws. Why not choosing all in, it gives him worst EV to call? Also with going all in, we can even choose more bluffs and stay balanced, so I dont see why should we raise as you suggested and then we need to bluff also some hands on river where bluffs have 0% equity? I guess the reason why not to go instant all in, is that villian in that case needs to defend only low % of hands, which allows him to choose only strong hands?

I hope I dont ask too much, and would like to hear your explanation.

You don't want to given him the worst EV to call. You want to minimize his EV. This means, over all of his hands, his total EV should be as small as possible.

If you jam, yes, his EV of calling with a draw is very bad. But he will never call, he will fold, and have that EV of folding. He will also have that EV of folding with his draws when you raise smaller - up to the point where they have a profitable call. So against his draws, any size from big enough where he can't call, has the same EV. So now think about his other hands, like nuts. They have the highest EV when you jam. They have a little bit smaller EV when you raise smaller. So against those, you want to raise as small as possible, to minimize their EV. If you take those two, draws and nuts, together, you see you want to raise not to small and not too big :f_cool:

Often that size is reasonably well approximated with 2/3 or 3/4 pot. But certainly not always.

Think about open raising preflop. Just going allin with AA and ATs is ok. But it's a bad strategy, as you fold everything else, and thus your opponents have good EV. Open limping with lots of hands is ok as well. But that again is a bad strategy, as your opponents can very often so many hands profitably when you limp (especially BB), and thus they have good EV. So you want to raise preflop, but not too big. How big.. nobody knows, but 2-3bb seems good :)


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

Ok I undestood it, thanks.

You mentioned total EV of all draws and total EV of all nuts. But I think you forgot the most important one, bluff catchers.
If we bet all in, they fold, if bet not too small and not too large then they call to
unable us to bluff any two hands. Right?

If I would go to other extreme, make very little bet. What I started doing is, when
RFI balanced reg checks to me on small drawy boards which doesnt hit his range,
I assume that he will check also some bluff catchers and try to minimaize FE of my bluffs. So I assume that most of the regs will try not to fold more than e.g. 40%, but
I will bet 30% pot size, so that they need to defend 75%, and defending 75% would be very hard, because in check range they have give up hands which cant defend.
Do you think it is ok way to exploit them even though they are balanced?
I would lose value on flop, but I would overbet turn and river with balanced range and check back weak bluff catchers on turn.


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lnternet
Joined: 19.06.2012

If we bet all in, they fold, if bet not too small and not too large then they call to unable us to bluff any two cards. Right?

Not really. Our worst case scenario is that villain plays in way which maximizes his EV and thereby minimizes our EV. This does not, at all, means that his strategy will make zero-equity hands of ours indifferent. It's quite a lot more complicated.

You can check out these for a start.

Calling down in general http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/2317/1/
Calling down on the river exactly http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/2314/1/

Barreling in general http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/2314/1/
Barreling river exactly http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/2324/1/

The other stuff about sizing vs skips, villain not folding X%, is getting too specific and OT. Maybe make a thread in Advanced NL forums about it. Maybe post your own hands in the evaluation forum where you play your standard, and see what people say.

In general about the "not folding x% of hands", which is just wrong, check my video here http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/32388/

So far _grin:


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

I already read all articles you posted and
Watched the video.
I dont like posting in advanced discoussion
Forum because coatches answer there rarely but only
Other players, and i post almost every day in hand evaluatin forum,
But when i ask for answer as this i usually get
Very short answer from coatches usually explaining
How to play the hand but not why to play that way.
So i asked here because your answers are detailed, and if
I ask somewhere else there is a low chance that
You answer.

Thanks for answers.


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lnternet
Joined: 19.06.2012

Oh ok, good to hear you know all my stuff already :)

If you want deeper 1 on 1 talk you can always book a coaching, maybe you already know my thread Private 'lnternet' Coaching. NL cash.

You also also send me a link to threads you want me to comment in, good chance Ill check it out. (Add me im community tool.)


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