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The T6o discussion from MBML Blog

 
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Last Post by Kruppe 12 years ago
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IvicaIliev77
IvicaIliev77
Joined: 31.05.2012
Posts: 4,329
15.03.2014, 22:44

Anybody questioning Pleno's or MBML's thinking must have some serious grudge on these guys.

Just look at their videos, listen to their thinking process, the way the evaluate hands, how they adjust and readjust and in the end check their graphs. Those guys mean business and to question them would be just silly in my opinion.

I am also interested in topic you started here regarding flatting ranges equity vs pot odds. I assume higher edge we have post flop, wider we defend (which is what I am doing more and more in SNGs).
Now Pleno mentioned c/raising ranges, and I just read about his post today but I have started working on this about a month ago. I think there is tons of value with c/raising as many opponents will have to get to showdown more or less to see frequency of your value to bluff ratio there. In the meanwhile you can crush them very frequently especially if they c-bet high % flop (70%+)

Just my 2 cents and full respect and support to MBML and Pleno in what they do.

P.S. Perhaps you guys can make some Silver video for Zoom, I would be super grateful ♦


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TJtheTJ
TJtheTJ
Joined: 12.10.2011
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15.03.2014, 22:57

^ +1!

Except one thing:

P.S. Perhaps you guys can make some Silver video for Zoom, I would be super grateful

I have a better idea. Why not buy Diamond status and get access to all their videos? :coolface:


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IvicaIliev77
IvicaIliev77
Joined: 31.05.2012
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15.03.2014, 23:10

Originally posted by TinoLaan
^ +1!

Except one thing:

P.S. Perhaps you guys can make some Silver video for Zoom, I would be super grateful

I have a better idea. Why not buy Diamond status and get access to all their videos? :coolface:

As soon as I make the switch to ZOOM I will (consider) buying Diamond status. In the meanwhile got loads to study for ZOOM, it ain't as easy as SNGs are that's for sure :)


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thazar
thazar
Joined: 14.09.2009
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16.03.2014, 00:45

this conversation about T6o OOP is super interesting, thanks mbml for the hand :)

I think Pleno pointed something out however that seems to have been missed by many people. While been a clear profitable call and max EV decision for mbml at NL500, it is simply because 1) his high understanding of the game and 2) because of the relatively lower rake at higher limit that makes the call profitable.

A coach telling you a hand is profitable to be played in a certain way is not enough , you have to understand why, how, when, against who and in what circumstances playing the hand will be profitable.


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Shevtshenko
Shevtshenko
Joined: 06.12.2009
Posts: 2,980
16.03.2014, 04:21

Wtf, multiple pages of T6 convo. :f_confused: So many micro stakes guys getting their minds blown :f_biggrin:


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mbml
mbml
Joined: 27.11.2008
Posts: 20,957
16.03.2014, 05:10

it's not so much about the rake, but more about the fact that at micros

1. People don't min-raise too often
2. Their button opening range is usually <50%


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mesisification
mesisification
Joined: 05.08.2011
Posts: 527
16.03.2014, 05:37

So would you call T6o in micros? And would you recommend that to beginner player?


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serverm07
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Joined: 08.08.2012
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16.03.2014, 05:39

Oh boy I haven't been reading too many blogs lately, but the whole T6 fiasco is pretty funny.


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serverm07
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16.03.2014, 05:41

Originally posted by mesisification
So would you call T6o in micros? And would you recommend that to beginner player?

this is obv directed at mbml but I will answer cus I can't help myself by quoting thazar

"this conversation about T6o OOP is super interesting, thanks mbml for the hand smile

I think Pleno pointed something out however that seems to have been missed by many people. While been a clear profitable call and max EV decision for mbml at NL500, it is simply because 1) his high understanding of the game and 2) because of the relatively lower rake at higher limit that makes the call profitable.

A coach telling you a hand is profitable to be played in a certain way is not enough , you have to understand why, how, when, against who and in what circumstances playing the hand will be profitable."

now ask yourself, are my opponents opening enough for me to defend this, how much is the rake affective to the pot, how is it going to affect it, can I do better by folding or calling. Obviously the game is far from solved but we all just make educated guesses.


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mesisification
mesisification
Joined: 05.08.2011
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16.03.2014, 05:47

It's quite hard to determine whether I should call or not based on those factor because I can't really say how wide villain should open and how he/I should play postflop in order to make a profitable call. Pretty complex thing to do. I would call with it myself most of the time but it is bottom of my range, T5o I would fold.


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_Anonymous_
_Anonymous_
16.03.2014, 06:21

not sure if my opinion is wrong. if calling T6o is profitable, its winrate should be better, maybe like -20bb/100 or higher? what winrate would it be if 3betting or folding T6o instead of calling?


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mesisification
mesisification
Joined: 05.08.2011
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16.03.2014, 06:24

Originally posted by alphaend
not sure if my opinion is wrong. if calling T6o is profitable, its winrate should be better, maybe like -20bb/100 or higher? what winrate would it be if 3betting or folding T6o instead of calling?

What do you mean? If ev of calling would be -99bb/100 it is profitable to call since folding is -100bb/100. How come it should be -20bb/100?


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_Anonymous_
_Anonymous_
16.03.2014, 06:37

Originally posted by mesisification

Originally posted by alphaend
not sure if my opinion is wrong. if calling T6o is profitable, its winrate should be better, maybe like -20bb/100 or higher? what winrate would it be if 3betting or folding T6o instead of calling?

What do you mean? If ev of calling would be -99bb/100 it is profitable to call since folding is -100bb/100. How come it should be -20bb/100?

i mean comparing winrate with 3betting/folding if they are talking about calling vs 3betting/folding. eg, 3betting/folding is -50bb/100, so they say calling T6o is profitable, it means calling winrate is better than 3betting/folding?


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serverm07
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16.03.2014, 06:57

Someone make a thread or something, this is just a big cluster here.

My last post before going to sleep, there are people that are much better than me both mathematically and fundamentally that can prove/state what I want to say better but I will try anyway.

The idea is obviously we have to do better than by folding, everyone has that part down. The next thing is rake= x bb, and after that we have to try and figure out against what kind of an opening range we can defend it, that's where tools like equilab, flopzilla, poker odds oracle, crev come in. This is the stuff that you do off the tables to have a better idea on the tables, which is something I need to be doing more.

And another important factor is how the villain plays obv, the more he bets the less we realize our equity, that's why often times you hear things like multipliers (what % of our equity do we realize) and so forth and so on.

I actually recently was reading some analysis on a spot in CREV and it was analysis of some of the hands that we would defend otf, but basically without going to into it, the EV of each hand was significantly different depending on whether villain bet 50% or 100%. So the point is we can only try and guesstimate these things and figure out what's most profitable. If I or anyone could answer all of these questions exactly, well then gg poker, solved etc.


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mbml
mbml
Joined: 27.11.2008
Posts: 20,957
16.03.2014, 11:23

about whether to 3bet or call or fold:

you should be thinking about how to maximize the EV of your entire strategy.
Even if 3-betting T6o yields a higher EV than calling, that doesn't mean it's necessarily the best line. What if you could call with it, and 3-bet a weaker hand that you would otherwise fold, and make a profit with T4o or 72s for example?


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mesisification
mesisification
Joined: 05.08.2011
Posts: 527
16.03.2014, 11:37

My approach has always been that as long as calling is profitable, even if 3betting would be more +ev in a vacuum, I will call. This because I'll be able to play as much hands as possible profitably without 3betting ridicilous amounts of hands.


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Padiz0
Padiz0
Joined: 29.11.2010
Posts: 41
11.07.2014, 20:07

Originally posted by mbml
about whether to 3bet or call or fold:

you should be thinking about how to maximize the EV of your entire strategy.
Even if 3-betting T6o yields a higher EV than calling, that doesn't mean it's necessarily the best line. What if you could call with it, and 3-bet a weaker hand that you would otherwise fold, and make a profit with T4o or 72s for example?

This way you'll have an extremely unbalanced 3-betting range.


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WillyD
WillyD
Joined: 14.11.2011
Posts: 242
11.07.2014, 20:17

wat


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mesisification
mesisification
Joined: 05.08.2011
Posts: 527
15.07.2014, 08:29

Originally posted by Padiz0

Originally posted by mbml
about whether to 3bet or call or fold:

you should be thinking about how to maximize the EV of your entire strategy.
Even if 3-betting T6o yields a higher EV than calling, that doesn't mean it's necessarily the best line. What if you could call with it, and 3-bet a weaker hand that you would otherwise fold, and make a profit with T4o or 72s for example?

This way you'll have an extremely unbalanced 3-betting range.

How come ♦

It's not an extremely unbalanced range, it's an extremely polarized range.


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booomm
booomm
Joined: 22.03.2011
Posts: 676
15.07.2014, 14:32

I haven't read the whole discussion but imo T6o is a standard defend vs >50% open from the bu, I'm actually loosing -134bb with T6o (39 hands) but only loosing -24bb with T5o (29 hands), wich should be a good indication that T6o should be a reasonable defend unless opener is a vey good reg (obv we are talking about 50> open from the bu)


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