Poker Eco-system and Black Member events in 2015

Originally posted by Marta
Hey Gary! The information is available to everyone in the open forum - we did not try to hide it. Additionally, every Black Member, or potentially soon-to-be Black Member, received an email from us informing about the change. We reached out to those who are affected. There was no real need to announce the same message in the news piece (that "lives" 1-2 days on the home page).

I feel disrespected.

I've had a very short Poker career, with ups and downs so far (actually more downs than ups, though I've only deposited 1 time and already got it back), mostly because I haven't had much time to study poker and get seriously into it, but I'm planning on doing that soon.

That said, since I started out with only 10€ 2 months ago, and right now have 10€ on PokerStars along with 100K tickets and some others which expire at the end of the month, without having a tracked account, I was thinking about sending them an honest e-mail about why they should track my account to PokerStrategy, since that would allow me to keep learning, hence to keep playing. Otherwise I'd have no incentive and I would withdraw.

Then, just before the month ends (when I was planning on doing this), I find out this thread by a pure coincidence. And after reading some comments here, I don't want my account tracked at all.

I know why you felt like keeping this only to the people affected, but you are cutting a large part of "the people affected". Take this analogy:
An 11-year-old, European kiddo wants to be an astronaut when he grows up. He wants to get into NASA. He studies and studies, goes through several hardships, ups and downs, makes some sacrifices, then at age 20 he sends his submission. NASA replies "Oh hey you know what? We shut down all applications coming from Europe 5 years ago. It's a shame nobody told you about this really, but we only informed those we were already working for us. Sorry".

It seems to me like there are 2 mains issues:
#1 The actual changes to the BM status
#2 The way you communicated it

Your COO had to step in a 2+2 thread to apology for point #2 and yet what you guys do now is plainly ignoring us. Don't you have people in Gibraltar that can clearly communicate the company's position? Why can't the English community know what's going on? Do we really have to read that thread on 2+2?

Can we know what is the current situation regarding BM status changes?

I think that the cliffnotes are that Playtech paid too much money for this site, and that, coupled with dwindling revenues from their iPoker licenses mean they can't afford to fund the black level member perks of suit and parties as well as free content for life.
Appears they will honour suits for those who are already black level member but no more going forward.

Agree that they probably communicated this news badly, but putting a front page ad to the fact that the site is struggling and having to cut benefits is probably self defeating for all of us no?
I have to say I think it is a bit bizarre for everyone to get so worked up about this to be honest.
Yes the promise of parties and suits were a nice icing on the cake, but the idea that members are getting nothing out of this affiliate relationship is preposterous.
Some of the black members have probably never deposited their own money. They were giving $50 by pokerstrategy, and given the skills and tools to turn that into a significant amount of money. Yes pokerstrategy also benefit from their success but at no direct cost to the member.

It's a bit of a bummer that these perks are being taken away, but if everyone keeps banging on about it, the site will struggle further, the site will fail and we will all lose the actual benefit of this site which is free training and content.

Originally posted by Dublimax
Can we know what is the current situation regarding BM status changes?

Hi Dublimax,

first of all, sorry to hear you believe the communication regarding the changes was not handled well. We were trying to be present both in this and also the VIP status restricted threads (very similar) following up on the members' queries. I trust that you read this thread throughout - however if you believe that some important questions have been missed, please let me know.

You have asked for an update on the current situation regarding BM status changes. Let me create a short recap of what has been done/changed.

1. Nearly 2 weeks ago we published the announcement (see the 1st post). This happened on the forum and via newsletters, however we did not publish a news piece. We decided to communicate via public thread + email to every affected VIP users with 350k StrategyPoints. Every affected user received an email with links to all important forum threads. Perhaps it might have been beneficial to have the news as well but at the time we were hoping that the forum communication would be just fine. Apologies if you perceived it differently (especially to you, ilostmysoul).

2. The reasons why the BM-benefit cuts were introduced were a mixture of the general poker industry trend (meaning: more focus on the recreational players, less money for the affiliates for the VIPs), as well as our reviewed investment strategy: if we want to invest in the X area, we need to adjust the spending in the Y and Z areas. This is not rocket science, but at the same time, this is not good news to our VIPs - and we acknowledge that. No one here argues that it's actually beneficial for the VIPs. It's not - and we are sorry we had to make this change.

3. The feedback regarding the changes was (understandably) negative. Our members pointed out (among others) the Black Member suit topic and the possibility of reviewing the decision made (initial decision: BM suits either to be requested while participating in the event or turned into a raffle ticket). Our members asked to allow more ways to receive the suit. We have reviewed the decision and the outcome was to allow the Black Members to get the suit without necessarily participating in the event (just popping by and being measured by the tailor). Or - to schedule and individual appointment with the tailor. I have mentioned it in one of my posts (here to be exact).

4. Since then, we did have a discussion here on the English forum, and we did follow it at all times. The frequency of the head admin presence here might not have been super high, indeed. The question is - was it really needed. There was, and still is, a lot of frustration on this topic, especially in the German section. This is nothing surprising and we're not saying it's bad. People have the opportunity to vent and we don't really want to limit this aside from statements that in our eyes are damaging for the company - and therefore edited. This can be ofc questioned by you. We are only humans and sometimes we will make a wrong decision - like deleting the video that went viral. Which in the end was a funny one (sad topic but a creative idea).

5. In a nutshell, going forward: tokens can be redeemed as before, BM suit can be requested at many events or during an individual appointment with the tailor, unused tickets will be included in the $100k raffle at the end of August.

I hope it's all clearer now - even if you disapprove of the decision. We respect every single one of you. It was a big and important step for us to make, one that business-wise long term, we believe will allow us to invest more in the new/recreational player acquisition, having a positive impact on the poker industry, in general.

Best regards.

Hi Marta,

first of all: Thank you for answering to a post, really. Could you please tell somebody to post anything in the German forum, because the thread there has almost 80 pages and we honestly feel ignored and abandoned. Thank you.

The problem about this whole matter is a) communication (see above) and b) that you cut back retroactively which never pays imo. All you get is angry customers and bad-mouthing, two things you just don't want to have. You really can only save it by being much (much much) more open and honest with your members (which in this case would include posts by CEO and/or COO) and making a good compromise with your VIP-members (I don't count the extension you made as being "good").

I would propose something like, everybody who has signed until date x (e.g. february 20th 2015) has now 18 months to become a BM and another month to send his measurements(?) to the tailor.
Tickets and tokens cannot be gained any more from now on and are paid out to the members within x months (if there is a shortage in liquidity). The raffle really isn't a good solution.
Don't feel obliged to answer to these suggestions but it would be nice if they were considered.

Disclaimer: I'm just a member of the community I thoroughly enjoyed over the last seven years, not anywhere near being BM.

Originally posted by wool85
first of all: Thank you for answering to a post, really. Could you please tell somebody to post anything in the German forum, because the thread there has almost 80 pages and we honestly feel ignored and abandoned. Thank you.

You're welcome, wool85

Our CEO is already communicating with the German Black Members. There are 2 threads on the same topic (like you might know already from reading the above post). The CEO is active in the VIP-restricted area - so many users with a lower status and thus no access there, might not be aware. The reason why we've chosen to have the discussion there is that the public (open to all) thread is being flooded with a lot of posts that can be considered as spam or trolling which makes it quite difficult to allow a constructive discussion - which we aim at. Just to reassure you that we are communicating with our German VIPs.

Originally posted by wool85
I would propose something like, everybody who has signed until date x (e.g. february 20th 2015) has now 18 months to become a BM and another month to send his measurements(?) to the tailor.
Tickets and tokens cannot be gained any more from now on and are paid out to the members within x months (if there is a shortage in liquidity). The raffle really isn't a good solution.
Don't feel obliged to answer to these suggestions but it would be nice if they were considered.

Always interesting to see another perspective, however - as outlined before, we are not planning any further changes in this regard. We understand that feedback on this is mixed, though.

Originally posted by wool85
Disclaimer: I'm just a member of the community I thoroughly enjoyed over the last seven years, not anywhere near being BM.

Glad to hear, really. To us, every member is important, be that bronze, gold or Black Member. Community-wise, we would like to grow and we would hope that despite the recent changes, we can still continue building the community of people who in the end share the same passion.

Thanks again for posting!

I got to admit that there is a lot of spamming in the thread but one of the reasons it got out of hand like that is that nobody answered any questions for a whole week - and there are many good questions. Again, communication.

Concerning the changes: In the end you have the hard facts to make this kind of decision and if that means you have to cut back on your cash-cows (aka BMs) it's understandable, but you're outright slaughtering them.

Communitywise this whole matter just feels like winter is coming, you smashed all your windows and just covered them with cardboard instead of calling a glazier. It feels cold in here

Hi Marta,

Thanks for answering.
I understand the need to keep this discussion for VIPs only to avoid all the unnecessary trolling. However it is also creating confusion because non VIPs are getting info from non official sources (2+2 here and elsewhere). From what I could read it also seems like there are still a lot of questions unanswered even in these VIP threads. (again 2+2 sources)

Whilst it seems like you are willing to make an effort towards BM (but having no access to the VIP threads I can't tell) I would like to ask what will you do for people that are nearly BM? Say someone with 450k SPs. These people have been grinding on tracked accounts to avail of the BM benefits. I can't see it being right that you change the rules retroactively and tell them now that those benefits are gone.

Can I have your views on this?

Dublimax, are you seriously telling me that people have raked thousands of dollars for a suit and a couple of parties?

If so they have been levelling themselves.

Originally posted by gormless
Dublimax, are you seriously telling me that people have raked thousands of dollars for a suit and a couple of parties?

If so they have been levelling themselves.

I think BM benefits can add up more than you think. The amount of discussions generated by this topic among BM would seem to confirm that these benefits are important to them. It's somewhat irrelevant anyways, what's more important is the retroactive change.

As a quick analogy:
I shop at Tesco and have a loyalty card. After a while I decide to get the beautiful toaster with my points (which compared to what I spent is nothing and didn't really bring me shopping back there) to be told that these loyalty points were worth nothing anymore.

After steve job stated that he indirectly had made the world naked, he also showed to a huge thinking crowd how you can profit without effort. Right now you are seeing it. Dont see it as me blaming 1 guy for a disaster. Facebook and other social medias went along aswell.

The more important fact is: Is T/C actually valuable anymore? Rumours is much stronger than facts nowadays. Just look at religion. And if a valuable flesh blood and meats gets angry, damage could be done. But not to a T/C, but to THE HOLE COMMUNITY.

Then a new company would be put down, and a new would rise because of effortless profit. And that would be put down aswell. I believe pokerstrategy is partly responsible for that. The damage is already done. I think the best you could do would be to "censor my comment". But have i already taken a picture of it? Could i just begin rage on "another" languaged community? Could i just prove that remours is larger than T/C? No? Test me. Are you sure i would want to be tested? Could that mean i would put in an effort? Because you DIDNT put in an effort? I could ofc die cassually because i eat food without reading T/C. Why dont we just all in the hole world sit and read terms and conditions. This way we could stop progressing and start killing the globe effectively. (Ups, are we already doing that?)

Im still angry. You have killed my motivation to live. And i demand it back. But you arent even in a position to give it to me, so how would that equation look like, if you can take something without beeing able to give it back? Im not even gonna ponder on that one. But i recent ppl that kill themselfes. So thats not an option either. But i dont really atm want to be killed either, so its really hard to find that solution.

Originally posted by Dublimax
I think BM benefits can add up more than you think. The amount of discussions generated by this topic among BM would seem to confirm that these benefits are important to them. It's somewhat irrelevant anyways, what's more important is the retroactive change.

That is my exact point, and those who are getting their knickers in a twist about it have obviously learnt nothing from this beautiful game.
Almost all members were drawn here by the promise of free money to play poker with, and free training and coaching that they could use to give them the skills to turn that free money into a serious profit, presumably for some black members a life changing sum.

That is the absolute value they have been handed by this site and this community for zero risk to themselves.

Sure the suit and parties would be nice as the icing on the cake if you rake that much, but shit happens.
The poker ecology is on a downswing and something has to give, obviously pokerstrategy has been affected by that.
And the idea that they have just pocketed all the money from the percentage of rake gained is preposterous. It is not free to run a site like this obviously.
Probably Playtech gave the founders a bit too much money for the site I'm guessing. But does anyone begrudge korn and other founders getting paid for what they created?
The lifetime promises of tailored suits and parties are a product of the poker boom years and surely most intelligent folks around here must of worked out they may not always be sustainable long term.

Your real world analogy has probably happened in real life by the way. Many different loyalty schemes come and go, and if you expect them all to truly be lifetime promises then to be honest you probably need a reality check. It is more than likely that if you spend too long waiting and saving loyalty points for any reward scheme you run the risk of being dissapointed

Tldr version: Shit happens. Deal with it. Move on. And stop being so results oriented.

@ gormless: most of these program would at least give you some time to redeem the points and not promise to keep it around for at least a while and then just out of the blue end it on the spot and all products that still would be sent retroactively cancel also. That is about how I see this situation.

That is a pretty shitty way to treat your customers that have been loyal to you for years.

What? Of course stuff gets cancelled out of the blue. Companies go under all the time, banks of late etc...
People have had entire pensions wiped out by the financial crisis.

We are talking about a suit and a couple of parties ffs.

And to be clear our relationship with pokerstrategy is a unique one. Most of us have never directly given money to pokerstrategy. They have invested in us. They staked us. In some ways they are our client.

Poker strategy are doing their best to keep the lights on and the real value of the site alive. I personally don't want that sacrificed for the sake if a parties and suits for the few.
Sounds like if you were close to getting your suit or already promised one there are options to still receive it.

If not, shit happens, move on, win some monies, and withdraw and buy your own suit.

@ gormless: that we haven't paid directly to them doesn't matter at all they still got the money from us. and it does effect the player because there bound playing at a tracked site instead of going with a better rakeback deal.

This doesn't even effect me personally as I only collected a bit more then 75K sp in the about 7 years I been playing through pokerstrategy. What bothers me how they start treating there customers like shit throughout this whole thing and no respectable person would exept being treaten that way.

Originally posted by martinemem
After steve job stated that he indirectly had made the world naked, he also showed to a huge thinking crowd how you can profit without effort. Right now you are seeing it. Dont see it as me blaming 1 guy for a disaster. Facebook and other social medias went along aswell.

The more important fact is: Is T/C actually valuable anymore? Rumours is much stronger than facts nowadays. Just look at religion. And if a valuable flesh blood and meats gets angry, damage could be done. But not to a T/C, but to THE HOLE COMMUNITY.

Then a new company would be put down, and a new would rise because of effortless profit. And that would be put down aswell. I believe pokerstrategy is partly responsible for that. The damage is already done. I think the best you could do would be to "censor my comment". But have i already taken a picture of it? Could i just begin rage on "another" languaged community? Could i just prove that remours is larger than T/C? No? Test me. Are you sure i would want to be tested? Could that mean i would put in an effort? Because you DIDNT put in an effort? I could ofc die cassually because i eat food without reading T/C. Why dont we just all in the hole world sit and read terms and conditions. This way we could stop progressing and start killing the globe effectively. (Ups, are we already doing that?)

Im still angry. You have killed my motivation to live. And i demand it back. But you arent even in a position to give it to me, so how would that equation look like, if you can take something without beeing able to give it back? Im not even gonna ponder on that one. But i recent ppl that kill themselfes. So thats not an option either. But i dont really atm want to be killed either, so its really hard to find that solution.

Good point, man.

To be honest, I'm disappointed. I did in fact only generate a decent number of strategy points in my first year (over 100k) but for a long time I only tracked my poker accounts to PS over competition partly because of the allure of BM parties and the suits.

I enjoyed the Diamond parties I attended and it was great to meet other members in the community. You definitely feel a little special. I think the event tour may have become a bit too extensive and I preferred Diamond/BM events that were combined for community reasons, but in scrapping these events completely PS may have underestimated slightly their weight in publicity gold for new players.

It really was an offer I was not aware of anyone else making and separated PS from everyone else. Congratulations PS, you are now 'one of the crowd'.

Well done playtech, 13 million euros in 6 months:

but that is not enough...

Originally posted by Dublimax
Hi Marta,

Thanks for answering.
I understand the need to keep this discussion for VIPs only to avoid all the unnecessary trolling. However it is also creating confusion because non VIPs are getting info from non official sources (2+2 here and elsewhere). From what I could read it also seems like there are still a lot of questions unanswered even in these VIP threads. (again 2+2 sources)

Whilst it seems like you are willing to make an effort towards BM (but having no access to the VIP threads I can't tell) I would like to ask what will you do for people that are nearly BM? Say someone with 450k SPs. These people have been grinding on tracked accounts to avail of the BM benefits. I can't see it being right that you change the rules retroactively and tell them now that those benefits are gone.

Can I have your views on this?

It seems like you've gone silent again but I'd like to get your views on this Marta.
Thanks

Hi guys,

there are no changes for those who are not Black Members yet (still, there is some time to become one and be able to get the BM benefits).

You can read more here: Update to phasing out of Black Member Events

Thanks.