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NL100 BW 3barrel bluff

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Majku99
Joined: 22.02.2012

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $106.19 (106.2 bb)
BB: $102.23 (102.2 bb)
MP1: $100 (100 bb)
MP2: $126 (126 bb)
MP3: $103.53 (103.5 bb)
CO: $113.30 (113.3 bb)
BTN: $110.41 (110.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T 9
5 folds, Hero raises to $3, BB calls $2

Flop: ($6) 4 7 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, BB calls $4

Turn: ($14) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $9.09, BB calls $9.09

River: ($32.18) K (2 players)
Hero bets $20.89, BB calls $20.89

Results:

Spoiler

$73.96 pot ($2.80 rake)
Final Board: 4 7 8 Q K
Hero showed T 9 and lost (-$36.98 net)
BB showed 8 5 and won $71.16 ($34.18 net)

BvB 3bet 7% cc 22%
HEy
No Kx, except 7K,8K in his range, some AQ,may want to call me here. I can rep sets,56, QQ+,KQ, I think it's nice to 3 barrell here. There's also a leveling thing that my opponent my know that on this run out I will fire lots of missed draws
TY


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

I'm not really sure what you are asking here? Your triple is fine/standard. His call down is not unreasonable if he expects you to follow through with all of your gutters/J9 type hands. It could be viable to split your range into 2 bet sizes where you overbet some of your value/bluff hands and bet smaller with other value/bluff hands. It's prob not really worth worrying about at these stakes. The only major take away for me personally is that he is defending only 29% which is very weak and too tight so I would steal his bb with about 60-80% of my sb range. I occasionally fold bottom of my range just to try to keep them from noticing but I wouldn't hate it if you just opened every time.


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Majku99
Joined: 22.02.2012

I open here ATC. His showdon made curious is this a standard play to call down here so wide, and this would put big question mark on bluffing river
thx for reply


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

Originally posted by Majku99
I open here ATC. His showdon made curious is this a standard play to call down here so wide, and this would put big question mark on bluffing river
thx for reply

I think his call down is very standard even though it is just weak pair. Anyway when you bet river, most of villians hands in range are bluff catchers so it doesnt matter if he has top pair or low pair. Just the blocker matters, and he has great blocker with this hand. Also, he can hardly has Qx, Kx in his range except 2 pairs, so probably this hand is in top of his call range.

Exploitatively it doesnt make sense for you to bet big on river if you have value hand because you will mostly make him overfold (unless he sees overbets as bluff), but from gto point of view, it makes sense to overbet Kx+ hands as it is nuts and this way you can have max number of bluffs in your range in a balanced range


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

Originally posted by GingerKid

Originally posted by Majku99
I open here ATC. His showdon made curious is this a standard play to call down here so wide, and this would put big question mark on bluffing river
thx for reply

I think his call down is very standard even though it is just weak pair. Anyway when you bet river, most of villians hands in range are bluff catchers so it doesnt matter if he has top pair or low pair. Just the blocker matters, and he has great blocker with this hand. Also, he can hardly has Qx, Kx in his range except 2 pairs, so probably this hand is in top of his call range.

Exploitatively it doesnt make sense for you to bet big on river if you have value hand because you will mostly make him overfold (unless he sees overbets as bluff), but from gto point of view, it makes sense to overbet Kx+ hands as it is nuts and this way you can have max number of bluffs in your range in a balanced range

I disagree with you on few things here. This hand is not top of his range, good villains will float much wider than you think. Position is quite important, this is one of the boards that is actually quite good for bb, also a lot of good villains will slow play straights occasionally, so Kx is not the nuts and overbetting Kx would not be good GTO wise. I'm talking about vs good opponents that don't cap their range on early streets fwiw. I don't think his call is bad depending on how he constructs his range but it's fairly thin given sb is not going completely wild.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

This hand is not top of his range, good villains will float much wider than you think

I actually meant it is in his 1-a part of range, didnt mean it is his best hand. Also 85s is a great blocker, blocks so many strong hands so I dont think it is a thin call at all. I would rather call 85s than Qx for example.
Also how do you know what do I think about his call range :) ? I assume good villian will float some broadways with bdfd, so will hit some Qx, Kx on turn and river, but still on the river his range should mostly be weak pairs, Qx, some rare Kx. I dont see many Kx in villian range. You can suggest what you would float on flop and turn so which Kx combos would you have? Imo the run out favors BU a lot. On A turn would be quite different though

Position is quite important, this is one of the boards that is actually quite good for bb, also a lot of good villains will slow play straights occasionally,

Can you please explain this in more details, why do you think this board is quite good for bb range? I actually think it is quite oppisite, it is horrible for bb range, and very good for BU. The reason is that BB usually flats plenty of broadways, and hits poor on low boards in general, so since BU has all of the overpairs, thus has great range advantage. BB only hits many set combos on this board, but not more than BU. Agree position is very important on low boards, since there are so many draws, and BU can nicely realize its equity.

I'm talking about vs good opponents that don't cap their range on early streets fwiw

They dont cap their range? They will surely raise some % of strong combos on flop and turn (especially important on low boards to prevent BU to realize his equity so nicely), so still even if they are not 100% capt, on river they will have only small % of strong hands.


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

Hello again,

I can barely keep my eyes open but will try to put together a long post answering your questions/comments. Really long post incoming but I think it will help you.

First things first, I'm not saying stop using 1-a completely but be really careful using a "naive 1-a". (think it's coined term by Will Tipton). There has been a vid by Internet talking about asymmetrical ranges, there are also other video producers who have talked about this quite a bit as well. I can also tell you from personal experience from working with tools such as GTORB where 1-a will be quite off. Use it as a starting point, guideline, however you want to call it, but you are better off analyzing range vs range and seeing who has more nutted combos. In terms of blocker effects with 85 or Qx, they are both bluff catchers, each blocks different hands, I could argue that not having a 5 is quite good because bad sbs will get too carried away with hand like a5o, but like I said neither of the blockers is significantly better than the other. It also depends quite a lot how the sb chooses hands to bet with. Also you seem to have the hand confused, this is BB VS SB, you keep mentioning BU.

Here is an equity distribution graph, top part represents "nutted" hands. I threw together two ranges quick, these are not how I play, but might be a fairly close representation of what two regs at my stakes might look like. It's like fine to defend all suited hands or use the super weak ones to 3bet. Some people might 3bet 56o/67o. This program is called EDvis, google it, download it, play around with it, use it, quite useful. What you will learn is that there are a lot of boards when sb opens and bb calls that hugely favor the bbs range because how aggressively bb is 3betting. (obv use your brain, this is not true for nits so use your hud.)

You are correct, the theory/logic behind raising strong hands is that it is supposed to prevent the sb from realizing equity and also make sb "behave" more meaning he just doesn't cbet always so middle and bottom of our range can realize and get to showdown. (I'm talking as the bb). However, what tends to happen a lot at small stakes is the BB bet's way too f**king much when checked to for protection so sb has no incentive to bet if the bb will put in money more frequently when checked to then when he bets himself, so what a strong sb will do is just x/r you and then the whole point of realizing equity goes out the window because we opened up the action too weak. It's a mistake a lot of guys make, myself included often. So that's why when you see internet's vid he bets quite large. Hopefully all of this so far makes sense.

There is a video where sauce goes over a sb vs bb spot where sb has AA on a similar type board but medium board with straight possible and bdfd coming in and betting AA comes out to be a mistake. I haven't studied this spot enough to know which hands might be too weak to bet otr, but so far in pretty much every spot I have gone over, the ranges are very polarized otr and I have learned that correct stack off ranges are quite tighter than most tend to think, lol sorry that's too general but I'm afraid I can't expand on that or it's going to go for too long. But I will give you some cool theory idea that i learned, when designing turn ranges, on river x and y, if you have 2 bluffs on x and 0 on y, vs 1 bluff on x and 1 bluff on y, your range benefits way more in the 2nd scenario because in first example you have no bluffs on Y and that's not good.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

Hi,

I am impressed with your comment :), you put alot of effort, thanks.

I didnt understand some things:

1) What are the axes in your plot on the right?

There is a video where sauce goes over a sb vs bb spot where sb has AA on a similar type board but medium board with straight possible and bdfd coming in and betting AA comes out to be a mistake. I haven't studied this spot enough to know which hands might be too weak to bet otr, but so far in pretty much every spot I have gone over, the ranges are very polarized otr and I have learned that correct stack off ranges are quite tighter than most tend to think, lol sorry that's too general but I'm afraid I can't expand on that or it's going to go for too long.

This part looks somehow disconnected from the above part. I mean, you mention some very special board type, where we cant bet AA for value on river, nor stack off which is actually rarely happening. So I dont see why did you mention this, and how it is connected to previous discussion?

But I will give you some cool theory idea that i learned, when designing turn ranges, on river x and y, if you have 2 bluffs on x and 0 on y, vs 1 bluff on x and 1 bluff on y, your range benefits way more in the 2nd scenario because in first example you have no bluffs on Y and that's not good.

Could you please explain this in more detail? It seems to me that you are explaining important concept, but it also looks that you switched between few topics. Why are we having more EV with having 1 bluff per range comparing 2 bluffs in one and 0 in other? IT obviously depends on distribution of value combos in both ranges, but you didnt mention it.


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

Hi,

Thanks, I'm trying to guide you in the right direction. I want to say this though, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, but you should definitely look into it yourself and not just blindly accept what I'm saying. This should go without saying for anyone and anything though. Okay on to the questions.

1) It's basically a visual representation of equity. Up and down is how much equity, left to right is the % of the time. So the upper region represents NUTTED hands, the lower region represents AIR hands.

Sorry I'm bad at quotes, multi quotes etc. Yea tbh that was just effect of me being tired and rambling on all over the place. I guess the point I was trying to make is you want to be careful oop not betting too thinly. It's a pretty big disaster when we have like 60-70% equity vs range and get raised off our hand.

2) This has to do with designing your turn range and I worded it poorly so I will try to explain it more. I will use small numbers so it's easy to understand and not messy. Our value range doesn't matter, it's always the nuts lets assume the board is Ts2sKh3d, and our opponent always has KJ. So we are ott and trying to pick which hands to bluff. Let's pretend we have to pick 2 out of 4. QJo, QJo, 67s,87s. Let's also pretend there are only 2 possible rivers either 3s, or 9h. So let me organize this a little bit.

Board: Ts 2s Kh 3d
Villain: KJ
Hero: has to pick 2 combos out of 4 possible, QJo, QJo, 67s, 87s
Rivers: Only 2 possible 3s, 9h.

So scenario A: we pick 67s 87s.
River: 3s (0 bluffs)
River: 9h (2 bluffs)

Scenario B: we pick QJo, QJo.
River 3s (2 bluffs)
River 9h (0 bluffs)

Scenario C: we pick QJo, 87s.
River 3s (1 bluff)
River 9h (1 bluff)

So GTO says even if our opponent knows our strat, he can't exploit us. You tell me which option is best. Also please pretend the KJ has no blocker effects. I could have picked a better combo for bluff catcher but w/e this works.

So what I did above was make a lot of limitations on the game, but what you would do when designing your range is to extrapolate that to a much larger range and many many more rivers :).


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

Hi,

I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, but you should definitely look into it yourself and not just blindly accept what I'm saying.

Definitely I am trying to understand everything I am doing, not only in poker but in general, I am not blindly copying things.

1) It's basically a visual representation of equity. Up and down is how much equity, left to right is the % of the time. So the upper region represents NUTTED hands, the lower region represents AIR hands.

Ok, thats nice representation of equity, we can quickly see that villian has more and better nutted and middle strength hands. So since they have about same average equity (I guess average equity doesnt matter much), how do we make use of this equity distribution? I guess we should use it to conclude if we should take initative, or check whole (or most) range? E.g. if hero would have more nutted hands, then he should donk even though he doesnt have initiative.
So what would be most important factor, weather to say hero has better range? is it average equity or % of nutted hands?

Sorry I'm bad at quotes, multi quotes etc. Yea tbh that was just effect of me being tired and rambling on all over the place. I guess the point I was trying to make is you want to be careful oop not betting too thinly. It's a pretty big disaster when we have like 60-70% equity vs range and get raised off our hand.

I guess, you are saying, if hero is OOP and villian checks and has better range, then hero shouldnt fire too wide and thin (for protection) because then his range is very vulnerable to raises, and will fire too often, so villian has intention to cr often strong hands and bluff? Imo, we should stop firing thin and wide, only if villian is really cr agro, and not as default, because vs many villians any bluff would be +EV once villian checks (at least where I play at NL100-NL200).

So GTO says even if our opponent knows our strat, he can't exploit us. You tell me which option is best. Also please pretend the KJ has no blocker effects. I could have picked a better combo for bluff catcher but w/e this works.

So what I did above was make a lot of limitations on the game, but what you would do when designing your range is to extrapolate that to a much larger range and many many more rivers :) .

Ok, I think I understand now your point. You want to say that when picking our bluffs, we should use them as diverse as possible, so that in average we can improve our bluffs on most boards and in the same time still to have similar number of bluffs in range? The problem if we dont have bluffs in our range is that villian will fold 100% of his range on river even if we bet 1bb, and if we have a bluff then he has to defend to lower our EV of whole range?

I will give another example, where I noticed I make mistakes:

It is low board (any) and I am bluffing mostly AJ+ hands, but cf hands as JQ, KJ, KQ (this is off course extreme example). So the problem here is that when next card is A, then my range is super strong and villian knows it (I think common spot when A comes, villians give too much credit in general), but if J-K comes then it is not so much scare card. So I should basically try to use from each broadways similar % of combos, to cover the board equally and not be too strong or too weak on particular runout?

Or another example similar to yours, if we on turn bluff only flush draws, and river comes flush, we have 0% bluffs on river in range, so villian will mostly fold (as it usually happens). So lets say we are IP, that means we should check back some % of fd and bet instead some OESD and GS so that in both check and bet ranges we can improve to strong hands but still to have bluffs in range?

OK, nice discussion.


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

Hey, just wanted to say that I saw your post but I'm a bit tired of typing and poker for the day. I will also be gone for the next few days. However if I don't get back to you in a week, please send me a pm reminding me.


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Kooort
Joined: 15.08.2006

Originally posted by serverm07
Hey, just wanted to say that I saw your post but I'm a bit tired of typing and poker for the day. I will also be gone for the next few days. However if I don't get back to you in a week, please send me a pm reminding me.

Altough you didn't meant me with this, I think it's okay to get this nice discussion back on the first page if there is still something you want to say... :)


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

Originally posted by Kooort

Originally posted by serverm07
Hey, just wanted to say that I saw your post but I'm a bit tired of typing and poker for the day. I will also be gone for the next few days. However if I don't get back to you in a week, please send me a pm reminding me.

Altough you didn't meant me with this, I think it's okay to get this nice discussion back on the first page if there is still something you want to say... :)
Expect a video released on this soon. After if you watch it, I would appreciate if you would let me know what you thought of it and which direction to take it in. Like tell me what your question is and what you want to me to evaluate on. Also please tell me what your assumptions are and any info you have regarding the opponent or the spot. This goes for anyone, I will then gather the info and try to make a video that covers that.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

Originally posted by serverm07

Originally posted by Kooort

Originally posted by serverm07
Hey, just wanted to say that I saw your post but I'm a bit tired of typing and poker for the day. I will also be gone for the next few days. However if I don't get back to you in a week, please send me a pm reminding me.

Altough you didn't meant me with this, I think it's okay to get this nice discussion back on the first page if there is still something you want to say... :)
Expect a video released on this soon. After if you watch it, I would appreciate if you would let me know what you thought of it and which direction to take it in. Like tell me what your question is and what you want to me to evaluate on. Also please tell me what your assumptions are and any info you have regarding the opponent or the spot. This goes for anyone, I will then gather the info and try to make a video that covers that.

Cool, I already started realoading video section every few seconds and waiting for your video :)


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Kooort
Joined: 15.08.2006

Originally posted by serverm07

Originally posted by Kooort

Originally posted by serverm07
Hey, just wanted to say that I saw your post but I'm a bit tired of typing and poker for the day. I will also be gone for the next few days. However if I don't get back to you in a week, please send me a pm reminding me.

Altough you didn't meant me with this, I think it's okay to get this nice discussion back on the first page if there is still something you want to say... :)
Expect a video released on this soon. After if you watch it, I would appreciate if you would let me know what you thought of it and which direction to take it in. Like tell me what your question is and what you want to me to evaluate on. Also please tell me what your assumptions are and any info you have regarding the opponent or the spot. This goes for anyone, I will then gather the info and try to make a video that covers that.

I just checked the videosection with the producer "serverm07" but didnt found any new video... did you upload it to pokerstrategy already or is it still "in production"?


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Kooort
Joined: 15.08.2006

Originally posted by Kooort

Originally posted by serverm07

Originally posted by Kooort

Originally posted by serverm07
Hey, just wanted to say that I saw your post but I'm a bit tired of typing and poker for the day. I will also be gone for the next few days. However if I don't get back to you in a week, please send me a pm reminding me.

Altough you didn't meant me with this, I think it's okay to get this nice discussion back on the first page if there is still something you want to say... :)
Expect a video released on this soon. After if you watch it, I would appreciate if you would let me know what you thought of it and which direction to take it in. Like tell me what your question is and what you want to me to evaluate on. Also please tell me what your assumptions are and any info you have regarding the opponent or the spot. This goes for anyone, I will then gather the info and try to make a video that covers that.

I just checked the videosection with the producer "serverm07" but didnt found any new video... did you upload it to pokerstrategy already or is it still "in production"?


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