TPTK OOP - Bet for 3 streets of value?

but you donk (which is not standard line, so it is not perfect)

Board is dry, I would like to let him bet.

I have a made hand so why is the donk so bad? Check-call flop instead depending on bet sizing?

Originally posted by Morph101
I have a made hand so why is the donk so bad?

it is very bad vs a good player because you do not let him make a cbet with his trash hands. (losing value)
In this specific example, it is not that bad to donk since villain is a fish and might have KK and call down. (without knowing that villain is a station , i would not donk and play for 2 streets of value)

Originally posted by Morph101
I have a made hand so why is the donk so bad? Check-call flop instead depending on bet sizing?

With xcalling you let villain bet with his wider range. You want him to stay wide and do not mind him betting himself.

the quesion is, which hands do you call there? If you donk all you strong hands, than your checking range is so weak, that villain can bluff you of everything, and as above mentioned, you don´t give him room for bluffing.

Plus he has many Ax hands in his 3betting range and with donking we fold those that we beat.

Villain 3bets pre. When we donk we don't necessarily get any info about villains hand. He might be calling with AK or 2 pair here. I wouldn't bet river here with TPGK.

The donk is decidedly bad in this spot. But it is decidedly not as bad in general as people seem to think. It is a matter of poker fashion rather than science. (Donker = fish) Here are three qualitative reasons for donking:

• You steal the initiative (villain will not have the opportunity to pot control on turn by checking back)
• You set the bet size, not villain (in a bet that might not even be coming from villain when you really want to see one). The value of extracting a half-hearted small c-bet that is only coming with a certainty of only 40-65% is highly over-rated.
• Villain is very likely to misread your hand ("this is NEVER a set", "this is ALWAYS a set", etc, all variants of misinformed "reads" occur) You will sometimes get welcome folds, and sometimes very welcome raises. The enemy is confused, though he doesn't realize it.

That said, this hand and this board is far from ideal to donk on.

Originally posted by bonecore
but you donk (which is not standard line, so it is not perfect)

Non-standard =/= not perfect

Originally posted by MJPerry

Originally posted by bonecore
but you donk (which is not standard line, so it is not perfect)

Non-standard =/= not perfect

Agree. Sometimes non-standard =genius .

Originally posted by YohanN7
The donk is decidedly bad in this spot. But it is decidedly not as bad in general as people seem to think. It is a matter of poker fashion rather than science. (Donker = fish) Here are three qualitative reasons for donking:

• You steal the initiative (villain will not have the opportunity to pot control on turn by checking back)
• You set the bet size, not villain (in a bet that might not even be coming from villain when you really want to see one). The value of extracting a half-hearted small c-bet that is only coming with a certainty of only 40-65% is highly over-rated.
• Villain is very likely to misread your hand ("this is NEVER a set", "this is ALWAYS a set", etc, all variants of misinformed "reads" occur) You will sometimes get welcome folds, and sometimes very welcome raises. The enemy is confused, though he doesn't realize it.

That said, this hand and this board is far from ideal to donk on.

Couldn't agree more. Donking is really underused.. I love donking flops from time to time, or c/c and donking turn.
On this hand though, definitely c/c, let him cbet EVERYTHING, which he very likely will. Then maybe make a small donkbet on turn, this will give you information on your opponent hand, will get value from smaller A's which might check behind, will make turned draws pay. If he shoves turn I probably fold though. If he just calls I probably shove river myself, but that will depend on opponent, if it's NL2 without reads I definitely shove.

Originally posted by YohanN7
The donk is decidedly bad in this spot. But it is decidedly not as bad in general as people seem to think. It is a matter of poker fashion rather than science. (Donker = fish) Here are three qualitative reasons for donking:

• You steal the initiative (villain will not have the opportunity to pot control on turn by checking back)
• You set the bet size, not villain (in a bet that might not even be coming from villain when you really want to see one). The value of extracting a half-hearted small c-bet that is only coming with a certainty of only 40-65% is highly over-rated.
• Villain is very likely to misread your hand ("this is NEVER a set", "this is ALWAYS a set", etc, all variants of misinformed "reads" occur) You will sometimes get welcome folds, and sometimes very welcome raises. The enemy is confused, though he doesn't realize it.

That said, this hand and this board is far from ideal to donk on.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, actually these reasons are very bad reasons to donkbet.
When you are considering donk betting you have to analyze these factors:
a) who has more nuts
b) which player's range has the equity advantage
c) potential exploitative plays

Hi there,

In general your donk is very bad in this case. You shouldn't be doing that versus any decent opponent in 3-bet pots oop, especially when you have hit quite well. There's some reasons for this:

a) Like said before, he has to give up his trash hands (like KTs, if he 3-bets that)
b) He has to give up his hands that have some value (Like JJ), because he can't call more than 1 street. If you let him bet flop, you could have at least 2 streets of value
c) and related to a and b, you are isolating yourself against his top-range. I believe that you wouldn't donk here with hand like QQ/QK or sth like that? Most of the villains know that, too.

Optimal line here would be to check flop and call 2 bets in this pot. In case he bets flop and checks turn, you can go for 1/2 value bet on river for sure.

Originally posted by kisgatyas

Originally posted by YohanN7
The donk is decidedly bad in this spot. But it is decidedly not as bad in general as people seem to think. It is a matter of poker fashion rather than science. (Donker = fish) Here are three qualitative reasons for donking:

• You steal the initiative (villain will not have the opportunity to pot control on turn by checking back)
• You set the bet size, not villain (in a bet that might not even be coming from villain when you really want to see one). The value of extracting a half-hearted small c-bet that is only coming with a certainty of only 40-65% is highly over-rated.
• Villain is very likely to misread your hand ("this is NEVER a set", "this is ALWAYS a set", etc, all variants of misinformed "reads" occur) You will sometimes get welcome folds, and sometimes very welcome raises. The enemy is confused, though he doesn't realize it.

That said, this hand and this board is far from ideal to donk on.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, actually these reasons are very bad reasons to donkbet.
When you are considering donk betting you have to analyze these factors:
a) who has more nuts
b) which player's range has the equity advantage
c) potential exploitative plays

You are discussing when to donk. This is not the same as discussing (as I do) the advantages inherent to donking, so you couldn't possibly disagree because I said nada about when to donk, except that we shouldn't do it here.

Originally posted by CPallo
Hi there,

In general your donk is very bad in this case. You shouldn't be doing that versus any decent opponent in 3-bet pots oop, especially when you have hit quite well. There's some reasons for this:

a) Like said before, he has to give up his trash hands (like KTs, if he 3-bets that)
b) He has to give up his hands that have some value (Like JJ), because he can't call more than 1 street. If you let him bet flop, you could have at least 2 streets of value
c) and related to a and b, you are isolating yourself against his top-range. I believe that you wouldn't donk here with hand like QQ/QK or sth like that? Most of the villains know that, too.

Optimal line here would be to check flop and call 2 bets in this pot. In case he bets flop and checks turn, you can go for 1/2 value bet on river for sure.

First off, I agree, donking this particular hand is bad. Donking may generally worse than check-raising (nobody really knows), but certainly not always.

You are assuming that a donking range is unbalanced. It should definitely not be that. It should be polarized and balanced between (top?) 2 pair+ and good draws (like a small pair + FD), and only on certain boards. If the donk is raised, generally reraise/move in. Only if the donk is called and you happen to be bluffing you are in trouble. Then you are on your own and will have to play poker.

I also think you too overestimate the value of extracting a measly c-bet those times when you have nuts. You want his stack. This is quite likely to happen in, say, BB vs UTG if he happens to have an overpair. This is particularly so because donks are misread. If you donk with a pair + draw, then it is a bonus if he folds. Admittedly, due to the most common misread of the donk, he will rarely fold - but - he may make the mistake of raising you, in which case you move in. Now you have fold equity and if he calls, it is no disaster because you have plenty of outs.