Double or Nothing Tournaments are getting Frustrating.

Here is a better example
888 Poker - $0.36+$0.04|60/120 Ante 10 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 800 (20.51/8.57/0.00/39 (V/P/3/H)
CO: 770 (17.39/12.77/2.78/210 (V/P/3/H)
BTN: 765 (29.87/5.48/11.76/78 (V/P/3/H)
Hero (SB): 815
BB: 850 (18.31/17.04/5.83/665 (V/P/3/H)

5 players post ante of 10, Hero posts SB 60, BB posts BB 120

Pre Flop: (pot: 230) Hero has K♥:T♥:

UTG raises to 790 and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 670

Flop: (1,690, 2 players) T♦:9♣:Q♦:

Turn: (1,690, 2 players) 3♥:

River: (1,690, 2 players) 6♠:

We're on the bubble:
According to nash

According to nash UTG should open shove any two cards -- and he does.
But why on earth does it make sense to shove any two, when two people after you have you covered?

In this case, he shove AKo, and was ahead, but If either myself in SB or BB called, he loses -- this time.
Knowing that he can shove any two here, I think BB thought he was far enough ahead of UTG's overall range to call.

So it seems that the nash equilibrium is all broken for DoNs

Or am I missing something obvious again...
VS

ICM in DON’s is ugly. It’s pretty much a satellite that 50% of the players win. So your goal is to reach top 4 and it doesn’t matter how much chips you have. So you need to call extreme tight if you’re not the short stack. So the call of BB is bad here and it’s likely the UTG player isn’t pushing any 2 as well.

Maybe good to check the article Bubble Strategy (5): Satellites and DONs as well.
I think you can learn a lot of it.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Originally posted by SDK1987
ICM in DON’s is ugly[1] . It’s pretty much a satellite that 50% of the players win. So your goal is to reach top 4 and it doesn’t matter how much chips you have. So you need to call extreme tight if you’re not the short stack[2] . So the call of BB is bad here and it’s likely the UTG player isn’t pushing any 2 as well.

Maybe good to check the article[3] Bubble Strategy (5): Satellites and DONs as well.

Yeah, I totally agree.
[1] One thing that really cooks it is the fact that people limp/shove their monsters.
I can't count the times I've been shortest or 2nd shortest, and shove over a limper with JJ+ only to find he has AA.
Not that it matters -- in most of those I was calling a shove anyway.

[2] To be fair, the Nash calculator I've been using does set the calling ranges at KK+ for most situations for all but the shortest stack, and even then only when his stack is low. I have even seen situations where it is most sensible to fold AA pre-flop. For example, you are in BB with 2nd shortest stack holding AA, and a big stack shoves. You would call any time except when UTG has less than 1 BB and will be out most likely on the next hand. I do think that the Nash calculator's ranges for open shoving are far too wide though. I think that people are calling wider, and if you call too wide under those circumstances, you get beaten a lot.

[3] Thanks for that! I knew of that article -- I don't know why I didn't think of going over it.
IIRC, there are some videos on DoNs. At one time we had a coach who specialized in them. A Russian guy, I think -- but I can't remember his name.

VS

Also it helps to Read the Fine Manual:

From the FAQ of the Holdem Resources Nash Calculator
Q:  Are the results real Nash equilibria?
A:  No, they are just approximations. The formal requirement for a Nash Equilibrium is that players must not be able to unilaterally improve their own equity by deviating from the Nash Equilibrium. For the vast majority of results produced by the calculator, this condition will not be met. But in most cases, players will not be able to improve their equity significantly when unilaterally deviating from the calculated ranges.

I think that in the case of the 40¢ 888 DoNs sufficient numbers of players have no clue, and what I'm doing is actually harming myself by expecting them to fold when they really truly should.

I'll tighten up a whole pile, and use what little edge I have for the bubble.

VS

i think it's lik forr 3buks whey a going for anything

Yeah, who cares if they lose 40 cents?
I was playing these while I worked on a script to move windows around, stack them, tile them, show the lobby of the current table etc.

The problem is, I was losing big time as you can see from the graph, and this has never happened to me before at Double-or-Nothings.

I was just curious about why it was happening.

VS

I played a single tournament, and ran each "decision" by the HRC nash calculator.
This hand is a no-brainer, and is just to illustrate the level of play I face.
UTG essentially donates about 10% of his stack with no chance of winning.
If he really did have a hand worth playing, a shove is the only play.
No-one but the cripple should call, so the most he loses is the same 1 BB.
At the very least, he should min-raise to make the BB pay. In this case, BB almost certainly would have folded (I think).

The first hmmmm.... hand was A♣:7♠: UTG
Blinds: 30/60 Ante: 5
UTG: 525 -- Hero folds -- 7♠:A♣:
UTG+1: 275
UTG+2: 475
CO: 950
BU: 975
SB: 275 -- calls
BB: 525 -- checks

HRC says push Ax+. I definitely disagree here, especially since people are calling way, way too wide. All the KQs hands, better Aces, pocket pairs and other junk can easily call this. in those cases I'm a flip -- and why flip?

Then this:
Blinds: 40/80 Ante: 5
UTG: 270 raises all-in
UTG+1: 470
UTG+2: 945
CO: 970
BU: 210
SB: 615
BB: 520 Hero folds -- A♠:3♦:
Clear fold, HRC agrees

I then open-shoved A♠:Q♦: in the SB and took the pot.
No arguments there, either.

Next
Blinds: 40/80 Ante: 5
UTG: 960
UTG+1: 200
CO: 985
BU: 540 hero folds J♥:K♥:
SB: 380 raises
BB: 935
HRC says BU should push K5s+
Again, I'm going to get called by A8+, and all PP even though they "shouldn't"

My first real raise:
Blinds: 50/100 Ante: 10
UTG: 970
UTG+1: 525 -- hero raises A♦:J♣:
CO: 475
BU: 1000
SB: 845
BB: 185
Not quite the bubble, about 5BB seems reasonable.
HRC agrees, but barely. Interestingly, it also says BB should call with any two. Since after posting, he has 75 chips left I think I have to agree there. 72o is only a 2:1 dog vs AJo, and he needs to put in 75 chips to win 185. He blinded out w/o a fight a couple of hands later.

Following that hand, I got 4 successive walks in the BB, and played no other hands Neither did anyone else. Easy game

2nd to last hand of the tournament:
Blinds: 90/180 Ante: 15
UTG: 1545
CO: 760
BU: 445
SB: 830 -- hero raises K♥:Q♣:
BB: 420
HRC says push any two from SB, and BB should call w/ 50%
I'm going to say I'll be tighter than that. How much tighter, I can't say.
If BB wins, I'm short stack, with a smaller stack than BTN who can punish me.
I need those chips, and I can't be sure BB will actually fold as required.

That was a very interesting exercise, but a heck of a lot of work.
What fascinated me the most is the early recognition that stack size relative to the blinds, and stack size relative to the players behind you are factors actually more important than the cards you hold.

I wrote a script that generates the HRC URLs and the table of stacks from the hand history as exported by PT4.

What would REALLY make this cool is the ability to query the PT4 db and extract the hand histories that way.

I hope somebody else gets something out of this...
VS

the least amount of skill of all poker = dons

Originally posted by CRI4BRA
the least amount of skill of all poker = dons

Well, the skill set for DoN's is somewhat different than for standard SnGs.
The push/fold ranges are totally different, but in the long run it is just another poker game.

As for "least amount of skill", I would say that particular honour goes to Spingoes and their cousins.

At first, I applied the ranges I used for the $11 DoNs I played before to the 40¢ ones.
The problem is that the players there call far too wide, and I did not adjust properly.

Since I read the article that SDK1987 recommended my winrate is once again positive.

Cheers,
VS

Ok:f_drink:

This is very funny I read this before somewhere but whats the point

hmm..interesting

I play $20 8 handed Double or Nothing on 888. The key is to play super tight, and don't always C-Bet. Even at the $20 limit, lots of players will call an early raise with suited connectors. I was just in one not too long ago, I had Aces, raise UTG, get 3 bet, another guy 4 bets, all 3 get it in preflop. They show 5,6 suited, & 10,J suited.

That’s pretty crazy especially at the $20 stakes. That could be a goldmine on long run.

The best, double or nothing

Originally posted by dragangor
The best, double or nothing

Hi, dragangor,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

I've always liked them, but I rather dislike the 50-50 format, and no rooms I play at have true DoNs any more.

Perhaps you could take a moment to Introduce yourself

As you browse the site, be sure to check out the free money offers.

Any questions? Just ask!

Best of luck,
VS