Facing an overbet OTR on a 4b-pot w/ A7s

Hello! I think that your 4bet sizing is fine. I like to make it that size with my whole 4b range so you can 4bet bluff cheaper(you should not 4b bluff vs all villains at nl10 though).

Interesting spot as played. You really cant have anything strong and villain can't rep anything strong. Villain also seems to be bit aggro so I'm calling this one otr. I think that he can do this with K♠:x blocker hands as a bluff. Hard to say what villains value range is here, to me it looks like villain does not have many value hands here and his range is bluff heavy.

I would bet ott for value since villain would bet his strong hands himself ott so you are often ahead here.

Mmmm, preflop is fine. But I think you can make a 1/3 cbet on flop.
As played, we cannot call.

Originally posted by nitrol
Mmmm, preflop is fine. But I think you can make a 1/3 cbet on flop.
As played, we cannot call.

Thanks for your input once again If you think we can't call here, what are your thought about villain's value range here?

Originally posted by marsa08
Interesting spot as played. You really cant have anything strong and villain can't rep anything strong. Villain also seems to be bit aggro so I'm calling this one otr. I think that he can do this with K♠:x blocker hands as a bluff. Hard to say what villains value range is here, to me it looks like villain does not have many value hands here and his range is bluff heavy.

I would bet ott for value since villain would bet his strong hands himself ott so you are often ahead here.

Thanks! I'm glad someone agrees on calling, 'cause that's what I did.

Originally posted by marsa08
You really cant have anything strong and villain can't rep anything strong. Villain also seems to be bit aggro so I'm calling this one otr. I think that he can do this with K♠:x blocker hands as a bluff. Hard to say what villains value range is here, to me it looks like villain does not have many value hands here and his range is bluff heavy.

I agree with the possible bluffs but he can have some flushes - KQ/QT/KJ/JT of spades will all play like that on previous streets. The thing is it doesn't make much sense to overbet with a flush into a weak and capped range and it makes all the sense in the world to overbet as a bluff. If you can give villain credit to be a thinking player, this should be a call on the river.

I'd make it bigger pre if you decide to 4bet it - you give very good odds with your sizing, especially with the deeper stacks but you said you're uncomfortable in 4bet pots -> you don't want calls. Flop check is fine but on the turn it's time to bet for value.

Originally posted by inceptioner

Originally posted by nitrol
Mmmm, preflop is fine. But I think you can make a 1/3 cbet on flop.
As played, we cannot call.

Thanks for your input once again If you think we can't call here, what are your thought about villain's value range here?
.

He played this hand scared, as if he had a draw and he was scared you slowplayed a big hand.
He has flushes...

Originally posted by kriko92

he can have some flushes - KQ/QT/KJ/JT of spades will all play like that on previous streets.

I disagree with this. Hero has shown weakness by not cbetting on this board so heros range looks weak. All of those hands that you mentioned have a lot of outs and will be betting on the turn.(almost all have outs to 2pair+straight+trips+flush).

They have a pair though, people usually check such hands for showdown value instead of turning into bluff to fold out Ax/KK. Your thought process seems to go like "check -> weakness -> bluff -> outs make it even better" but others can go "pair -> check -> outs let me call easily when he bets". Once you default to checking showdown value, it's hard to change your mind and think about bluffing, it is much easier to rationalize checking.
I'm not saying betting is wrong, just that I expect nl10 players to check these most of the time. These are only 4 combinations though and we can discount some for betting the turn or betting river smaller. It's not a spot where he will never bluff so calling should be fine.

Yes you are right. Most nl10 players are probably checking them back on this spot with that tought process you said. +1.

To me it looks like easy bet/shove river as the villain since heros range looks/ is a lot like KK/Qx/weak Ace that will fold to a river shove and shoving has then higher Ev than checking for sd value.

But even if villain checks those hands back ott im still calling river as played.

as played we just have to call....
the good think with A7 is that we block good two pairs like AQ , AJ...
BB should me leading turn with range that beat us ( JQ,JJ ).....
My bets on his river range are that he has a hand like TT,KQ,99 that he recognizes he cant win on sd and decide to fire an over bet to make u fold all ur nano Ax's bluff 4bet range..

I will be @ least betting something on flop or turn .. in order to have a easier check / check back situation on river ...

Pre is fine. You could cbet 1/3 otf. When you check flop I think you could stab turn. As played we can't call OTR.

How can you call if villain has a ton of better Ax and Flushes?

Originally posted by nitrol
How can you call if villain has a ton of better Ax and Flushes?

Who said we are calling?

Krasops...

Originally posted by nitrol
How can you call if villain has a ton of better Ax and Flushes?

the only Ax hands are AQs AJs( depetable) , AK too depends the 5bet range he has... this combos are blocked from our holding
and by any mean i dont say it's a std call .. but it's not the worst play ...

Also after we checking flop i think that he is two street stabing a lot with his flush draws , two pairs , sets ...

As i said my bets here are that he turned his good pair into a bluff after seeing the action on flop /turn..

The fact that we block some hands does not mean he automatically cannot have them! Right?
It reduces the number of combos that he may have...
All A6+ beat us, except A7 that we split... Plus there is a flush... Plus 2P+ beat us..... what call do you find here?

Originally posted by nitrol
The fact that we block some hands does not mean he automatically cannot have them! Right?
It reduces the number of combos that he may have...
All A6+ beat us, except A7 that we split... Plus there is a flush... Plus 2P+ beat us..... what call do you find here?

do u thing they flat A8-AJ? oop vs 4bets too often??? Even AQo i dont see it much

Why not? And Ax is notthe only possible better combination... Better give a range and let's discuss it.

Originally posted by nitrol
Why not? And Ax is notthe only possible better combination... Better give a range and let's discuss it.

Can you give me the range I was asking for before asking other people for ranges?

Originally posted by inceptioner

Originally posted by nitrol
Why not? And Ax is notthe only possible better combination... Better give a range and let's discuss it.

Can you give me the range I was asking for before asking other people for ranges?

I think he can but what is the point. You will learn better if you try to think what kind of range villain has here and then we can discuss about it.

I think villains 3bet/call range is the top of his 3betting range. This is BTNvBB so it could be around JJ+,AQo+,AJs+. Maybe narrower, maybe wider. I think some guys can have KQs and JTs too, or 66... Villain seems to 3bet a lot pre. Villains check on the flop is standard. Turn check could be trap or then he has a flush draw. Anyway I think he most likely has a better hand OTR than we do. His sizing OTR is weird. If he is bluffing he could do it cheaper? This can be a desperate move to compensate the lost value from not betting turn?