Either x/c to let him bluff his busted draws or a bet representing a busted draw yourself, Im not bet/folding ever there arent that many backdoor flush combos specially MP vs BTN.
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Originally posted by Naixy
Either x/c to let him bluff his busted draws or a bet representing a busted draw yourself, Im not bet/folding ever there arent that many backdoor flush combos specially MP vs BTN.
So if we bet and villain raises you are going to call? It is true that there are not so many backdoor flushes, except all that has a pair OTF or overcards? KQs,QJs,JTs,J9s,T9s,89s,78s,67s maybe even wider? I can see villain calling OTF with overs + BDFD and pair+BDFD but I don't see him bluff raising river with weaker hands when flush is possible. With what hands he will raise our river bet and why?
Agree. But this is why I prefer check-call. Top set is too strong to bet-fold. I'd bet-fold several other weaker holdings.
I suggested xc in my first opinion as I wanted to give villain a chance to bet wide.
I cannot make up my mind...
If we don't check-call this, then what is our check-calling range? It is empty! Surely, we don't check-call with a flush. This means that when we check, we fold. This is most definitely problematic from a theoretic point of view. Whether it is problematic in practice, I don't know. At the higher limits it would be. The corresponding behavior would be noted on other boards as well.
Check call is totally fine too and as you said it could become problematic if we don't have x/c range at all. But if we believe that villain has many weaker hands that he will call a small bet with, I think getting max value is more important than balancing our play. I don't think this is as problematic in practice at the micros than it is from theoretical point of view.
So how can we conclude this one into 1 simple sentence with regards to check/calling? Why do we check/call?
He can raise some sets and given the odds you will have a call most of the time, he just needs to have like 4 combos of sets given the range of backdoor flushes you said he could have, then again we have no reads.
Originally posted by Hesticus
So how can we conclude this one into 1 simple sentence with regards to check/calling? Why do we check/call?
We xc to give villain the opportunity to bet at you with all bluffs and missed draws.
xc is good for sure as gs and diamonds bust and he hardly ever has the A, can also easily xc our Ax diamonds. bet cant be terrible, i wanna bet and call some funky sizing like 10-30% pot though.
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Originally posted by nitrol
Originally posted by Hesticus
So how can we conclude this one into 1 simple sentence with regards to check/calling? Why do we check/call?We xc to give villain the opportunity to bet at you with all bluffs and missed draws.
Nice one!
This is a nice thread. No post is really "wrong". I wrote early on "I'd just hate to bet/fold here and I don't want to put myself in that position." (It is the folding part of it that I detested.) But I couldn't put it really in words exactly why, and was forced to figure that out. Reading the other points of view helped a lot in translating whimsical "instincts" to something a little bit more substantial.
(It is "range protection". The "instinct" is probably from FL where you have to, for example, check-raise with initiative on the turn a shitload versus some kind of fish (the if-you- check, I-bet type).)