NL5 KQ two pair, river decision

Flop and turn are ok. Vs a passive villain we can check river.
As played, fold is good.

I like check river more and maybe call a decent bet. As played fold is good. Pre, flop and turn are good.

Originally posted by la55i
I like check river more and maybe call a decent bet. As played fold is good. Pre, flop and turn are good.

You dont think we shuld value bet top two at river!? Not sure if he will ever bet river with worse if i check, but he may call river bet with Kx hands, maybe hero call Qx but i block lot of Kx and Q combos.

Hi there

Pre is fine
OTF 3/4 pot is good
OTT sizing is a bit big maybe 10bb seeing as villain could have TJ in his BB defend range but I like the bet for protection.
OTR I like a check call here. anything 1/2pot to 3/4pot I would call.

NH WP

Hmmh that is close. Since the backdoor flush came there villain might be able to fold some Kx, Qx to third barrel. If you bet you should bet small, maybe a bit smaller than here, and fold to a raise.

check/call is pretty crazy i'm not sure what you're expecting to bet the river, betting yourself is much better. well played

Originally posted by la55i
Hmmh that is close. Since the backdoor flush came there villain might be able to fold some Kx, Qx to third barrel. If you bet you should bet small, maybe a bit smaller than here, and fold to a raise.

But doesn't that mean that we are turning our hand into a bluff?
I mean ofcourse he could have the flush or str8 but why give him the chance to push us out of the pot when we could check call.

the whole reasoning of "raise/folding is like turning your hand into a bluff" is fallacious. villains obviously have different ranges for calling and raising, it's perfectly okay to bet for value against what you perceive to be his calling range and still believe that you are way behind his raising range at the same time

Originally posted by Tomaloc
check/call is pretty crazy i'm not sure what you're expecting to bet the river, betting yourself is much better. well played

The pot on the river was 40bb in the hand.
The Hero bet 22bb so lets say we check and villain half pots for 20bb it cost us 2bb less to get to showdown.
Or Villain 3/4pots we pay 8bb more than we would have bet ourselves and possibly bluff catch some hands.
I dont disagree with betting small and folding to a reraise I just think the c/c line makes more sense overall.

which hands is villain betting? certainly not KT or some random garbage one pair hand. JT has completed, backdoor flush has completed, his only missed draws are AT and AJ sometimes but he clearly has a lot more single Kx hands (specially given positions) so i'd rather bet myself. but if you wanna check/call you can do that i guess

Originally posted by JoeRichy

Originally posted by Tomaloc
check/call is pretty crazy i'm not sure what you're expecting to bet the river, betting yourself is much better. well played

The pot on the river was 40bb in the hand.
The Hero bet 22bb so lets say we check and villain half pots for 20bb it cost us 2bb less to get to showdown.
Or Villain 3/4pots we pay 8bb more than we would have bet ourselves and possibly bluff catch some hands.
I dont disagree with betting small and folding to a reraise I just think the c/c line makes more sense overall.

You are losing value when he checks back Kx, or Qx or something he wuld call bet maybe.

Originally posted by Tomaloc
which hands is villain betting? certainly not KT or some random garbage one pair hand. JT has completed, backdoor flush has completed, his only missed draws are AT and AJ sometimes but he clearly has a lot more single Kx hands (specially given positions) so i'd rather bet myself. but if you wanna check/call you can do that i guess

Yeah actually the more I think about it maybe b/f is better here but maybe a bet of about 10-15bb i think more than half pot is too much.

I like this hand as played. We can turn hands like AK into x/call bluff catchers on the river.

AK beats the same amount of bluffs as KQ. So we dont want to x/call with top 2.

KQ can still get calls from worse as our range is polarized otr when we barrel 3 streets. Villain should be calling river with KJ here as it is his best bluff catcher. Given that hero bluffs enough.

Also given the fact that this is nl5 and players generally call too much so I think that it is better to b/f.

Guys, I think that the hand is ok as played. Even the river size is ok for me. It is not too low and is not inducing.

I agree. Optional lines OTR are x/c and x/f, depending on bet size and villain but betting small and folding to a raise is totally fine. I like to bet 1/3-1/2 OTR and this is around there. So overall this hand was played fine.

The Value bet here is so thin

We have to bet for thin value too.

I am bet-folding (small) this versus average player. I would be check-calling with the stronger (maybe most) sets.