AK 3bet pot

Originally posted by canad32

If you feel that way, you should probably not play deep. You become so tight and predictable that you cannot win.

It is about EV of a hand not about playing predictable. small PP are playing badly OOP. They are dominated. They hit very badly on most flops and mostly you can't +EV float with them, meaning that you have to fold most of the time. The hands that are ok deep are suited broadways, aces which hit big hands more often and flop better (better playability, can float or raise on many boards +EV). Still, OOP it is likely that those hands are also -EV calls.
If you are playing vs a bad player, e.g. someone who is only 3betting strong hands and when you hit a set he is going to pay you off the whole stack very often, then more hands become +EV when playing deep.

Ask your coach if he would call small PP OOP vs 3bet deep (or not deep). Or search for some ranges in internet.

I think you miss something. We can play pp when deep just for set mining.

I think you miss something. We can play pp when deep just for set mining.

It is not so easy to say, set mining is +EV if you follow e.g. rule 20. It used to be few years ago. Nowadays, good players when playing vs good (I mean not vs fish or bad reg) players are not calling anymore small PP deep OOP because of bad playability and domination. You can expect when you hit a set with 55 to stack off deep a fish, but you vs reg you can't expect that he will call all TPTK+ combos deep stack, because he will fold some of them on all streets. Set mining OOP is only good if a player is going to pay you off once you hit often enough.

Position is very important especially when playing deep. This means, that it favors MP in the posted hand. When UTG starts defending more hands than usual, it is very good for MP since he is playing IP and is 3betting strong hands and playable bluffs (e.g. A2s-A5s). If MP is 3betting UTG, then UTG should be probably defending around 30% only because other players behind will defend as well with cold 4bet or cold call.

Off course if you think that hand XX can call vs 3bet OOP deep +EV, then you should do so. But it is only your assumption (that because you are playing deep you can call +EV OOP). The poker theory has advanced lately a lot, and good players tend to play less hands OOP deep, and try to play more hands IP deep.

If it would be SB or BB vs UTG then UTG can play more hands +EV when deep because he is IP.

Position and talent for poker are undoubtedly important. But saying a set doesn't make money at the same time you say villain cannot be bluffed doesn't add up. Playability is small and also perhaps an advantage as it is easy to play. You can play fit or fold. Without a doubt, you'd play in BB with 66 against an UTG raise??? That is a much worse spot than getting 3-bet when sufficiently deep.

Fit or fold is the play when set mining deep.

But saying a set doesn't make money at the same time you say villain cannot be bluffed doesn't add up

If villain cant be bluffed meaning that he will always call down when you hit a set, means that he is a very bad player and set mining is ok. When villain can be bluffed, then still set mining deep oop is hardly +EV because usually you are not going to bluff raise your small PP (bad playability) but backdoor hands, GS etc (there are plenty of better bluffs than small PP). If you can bluff raise+EV any hand, then villain is very bad player so still set mining is +EV.

Playability is small and also perhaps an advantage as it is easy to play. You can play fit or fold.

Playability is super important when deciding which hand to defend preflop (when there are more streets to play). It is actually a key factor to consider, especially deep. E.g. A5s is playing much better deep than AQo even though A5s has less equity vs a villain range. A5s when not hitting has often flush draw, GS, and often backdoor fd which can be bluff raised (good playability). AQo has similar domination issues as small PP, but at least AQ has 6 overcards on most boards, and thus can be bluff raised, or float.

Without a doubt, you'd play in BB with 66 against an UTG raise??? That is a much worse spot than getting 3-bet when sufficiently deep.

It is also not hugely profitable spot to call 66 BB vs UTG, you get similar pot odds. The difference is, you play BB vs UTG vs wider UTG range comparing when you play OOP vs 3bet range. That means, that when you cold call you can expect more check / folds on flop (less aggression in general) comparing to when you play OOP vs 3bet (because of wider range). Also another important factor, 66 is having less domination issues as when played vs 3bet.

Originally posted by canad32

But saying a set doesn't make money at the same time you say villain cannot be bluffed doesn't add up

If villain cant be bluffed meaning that he will always call down when you hit a set, means that he is a very bad player and set mining is ok. When villain can be bluffed, then still set mining deep oop is hardly +EV because usually you are not going to bluff raise your small PP (bad playability) but backdoor hands, GS etc (there are plenty of better bluffs than small PP). If you can bluff raise+EV any hand, then villain is very bad player so still set mining is +EV.

If we play our pp it will be to set mine.
Enough digging a hole...

If we play our pp it will be to set mine.

If you can set mine +EV. Thats exactly my point, you can't

Yes, we can. We will stack villain as he has strong range and we do not worry about bad playability as we play fit or fold with small pp.

I don't see why couldn't we set mine profitably. We are deep so we have enough implied odds to do this. It doesn't depend on villain that much, we will win enough money often enough no matter what. And as I understand it, the playability of this hand is good. It is easy to play and when we hit hard we are rarely dominated.

We are deep so we have enough implied odds to do this.

Why do you think that we have enough implied odds? Having enough implied odds would mean that once you hit, you will win often enough big stack which would make your call +EV. But why do you think that vs a reg you are going to win a often enough OOP ? I made my reasoning, bad playability OOP (mostly have to fold when not hitting a set), a hand is dominated which is especially bad when playing deep. Since nobody can provide theoretical proof that set mining vs reg OOP deep is +EV, we can only use logic and looking how we (or other regs) play in such spot on large sample. This is why I would like to see your reasoning why do you think that you have enough of implied odds to set mine +EV. As far as I learned in poker videos, nowadays regs don't even open raise from UTG 22-55, not cold calling from all positions 22-55 (except when we have position), and not calling a 3bet OOP with those hands, even not flatting 22-55 from BTN vs e.g. BB or SB 3bet. If you watch e.g. coaching videos series from weasel, you will see that he is folding a lot OOP vs 3bet also deep.

And as I understand it, the playability of this hand is good. It is easy to play and when we hit hard we are rarely dominated.

Hands that have good playability are not the hands which are easy to play, but the hands which hit often a draw, backdoor draw, a pair, able to hit strong hands. Such hands are mostly suited aces, suited broadways which are good for playing OOP deep. Small PP are the hands which are considered to have one of the worst playability since you most of the time have to fold vs cbet when you miss (only 2 outs on most boards). Even worse playability have hands such as ATo, AJo and similar, which have reverse implieds and rarely hit draws.

Man, read carefully. It is a 3b pot. The 3 bettor has a strong range. Most of the time hitting a top p or over pair+ brings big bets which will pay off for your set mining.
Why do you talk about playability and domination when we tell you we play for hitting a set? We play strict fit or fold. No investing big when do not hit.... What else do you need?

As nitrol said, the 3bettor has a strong range. When he hits a top pair, an overpair or a nut draw, we will get a lot of money in. The fact is that we will get enough money in often enough to setmine profitably. Why do you think we don't get money in against a guy who 3bets pre and has position? And why does it matter if regs open 22-55 or not? We can risk 9bb and when we hit a set and he has an overpair we get his whole stack.

And what comes to playability, I have to disagree with you. Small pocket pairs have a good playability. The hand is easy to play, you know what to do and you rarely make a mistake with it. Also it is NOT easily dominated. When we don't hit, we know we must fold. When we hit a set, we get rarely dominated. Hands like ATs would be easily dominated because there are so many better kickers.

You can check this article
It starts with this "The playability of a hand indicates how easy it will be for you to make the best possible decision after the flop."

Plus a situation of set over set is not that common. It will happen rarely enough to worry about that.