calling min raise on flop equity calculation

I absolutely do not like your flop bet. You have only two pairs in multiway pot with a lot of draw (flush and straight draw +someone can hit straight). Against 5 opponents (+full ring) on this kind of board you have little chance to win. If somebody bets after your check you can fold your hand especially in OOP. Yes, it is sound weak but you invested only 1 BB and better fold now then have some hard decision on postflop.

As you played... flop - easy call UTG re-raise

to win (60+4.5+9+4.5) = 78 bb.

Mistake... 60+4.5+9=73.5 BB

My question is where is the 60bb pot in flop? the hand history says 0.60$=6bb at flop and that you raised 0.45$=4.5 and villian mini reraised you to 0.90$=9bb. the total pot you are playing for when you call the 0.45$=4.5bb is 2.4$= 24bb @ plo10. that should change the math. and in the hand history, the hand went check/check @turn and river. sometimes you should be thinking if his hand is strong enough to pay you when you hit your full house. or if the hand goes bet/fold whene you hit...
Maybe i should be looking at this hand as an implied odds side of the hand.. UTG has 40bb, and he minireraised you to 9bb of 31bb ♦ also makes it very very negativ in the long run to call there ♦..

Originally posted by TheKingOfCasablanca
My question is where is the 60bb pot in flop? the hand history says 0.60$=6bb

Damm... you are right! I did not notice it ♦ lol ♦

Originally posted by VisuLatvijai

Originally posted by TheKingOfCasablanca
My question is where is the 60bb pot in flop? the hand history says 0.60$=6bb

Damm... you are right! I did not notice it ♦ lol ♦

it is difficult to read those kind of hand history. we are used to converted hands ♦

Its hilo in case someone missed. There is no low-possibility. Definitely check the flop, no reason to bet.

That explains a lot ♦ I missed that it was a hilo.. I dont play hilo never,ever

Originally posted by TheKingOfCasablanca
My question is where is the 60bb pot in flop?

Ach. You're entirely correct.

So it should be

After the flop raise by the Villain

Pot = 6 bb.
Hero bets 4.5 bb.
Villain raises 4.5 bb.

Hero must call 4.5 bb to win (6+4.5+9+4.5) = 24 bb.

Hero has 4 outs to effective nuts (K, K, J, J)

Hero has 4/44 cards to hit, which is 1/11 or 9% to hit.

Flat calling means immediately speaking, hero

wins (.09 * 24 bb) = + 2.16 bb
loses (.91 * 4.5 bb) = - 4.095 bb

means flat calling is -1.935 bb

Except VisuLatvijai says it should be

Hero must call 4.5 bb to win (6+4.5+9) = 19.5 bb, which is worse.

I had 6 in the pot + 4.5 bet by hero+ 9 from villain's min-raise + 4.5 for hero to call. This was incorrect?

You have to pay 4.5 to win a pot of 24, so you need 19%. You don't have it.

If you call with 4 outs, which is going to just under 1 out of 10 times, you would need to win total pot of around 45 for required implied odds. After your call the pot is 24 so if you would know that opponent calls full pot with straight when K or J comes, you could barely call the minraise.

In reality that is not the case, and he has KK in his range too.

IMO in this hand the question is not whether to call the minraise or not, it should be "why do you bet the flop in the first place?".

One problem at a time.

VisuLatvijai says its 4.5 to win 19.5

Kyyberi says its 4.5 to win 24.

Which is it?

The strange (and not helpful answer) is: both are correct.

The problem is what exactly do you want to describe and how do you write it down.

Odds: your are paying 4.5 against 19.5 => 4.5 : 19.5 = 1 : 4.333
Equity: your are paying 4.5 to win a pot of 24 => 4.5/24 = 18.75%

So it also depends a little bit where you point of view is. And towards which goal you want to go from there.

Rhodriguez

equity.

the language in my original post and in Kybberi's post is 'to win'.

Thank you for clarifying.

Now to the other problem.

Betting the flop.

I understand where this is probably a bad bet but I'd like to question that a little bit...

In this very specific game play is very very very transparent.

When I bet that flop I will be called by a lot of draws and only made hands that beat me except for bottom two pair.

When any of the draws come in I can check turn and river - if any one bets into me I can comfortably fold.

When blanks (deuce through six) come I can bet for value against those draws again. When my hand improves I can bet.

Most importantly, if I had the nuts on that flop or a draw to the nuts I can take the same line.

Is this awful?

Originally posted by zagarese

When I bet that flop I will be called by a lot of draws and only made hands that beat me except for bottom two pair.

So in regards to the hi, we lead repping QT. The only draws are diamonds and in a MW pot it is more like QT and sets are out there even if we block one out each to KK and JJ. When we lead and get flatted, all villains can still have QT and all sets, hands we're crushed by. We're getting value only from J9, K9 and Adxxx:d, Qdxxx:d with a gut shot or something.

Against a raising range if we say he can still have all sets and straights then we're a 2:1 dog, 66/33. With poor visibility on all turns, we don't know what is a good card or not, so diamonds can bluff us easily and value hands just milk us. On any 8-A is dangerous for us if villain min clicks nut flush draw with a gut shot because then we don't know if any of those cards effect our equity and we continue to put money in bad.

If checked around thats a different story, we can then protect our hand against weak straight draws on 2-7, and take caution on 8-A.

Originally posted by WhiteWalker

If checked around thats a different story, we can then protect our hand against weak straight draws on 2-7, and take caution on 8-A.

I think I'm reading that you suggest checking and leading turn when checked around.

Is that correct?