KK on dangerous board

I would either bet OTT as well and then check OTR or just give up and check OTT and OTR.

If we would be at villains place and we were holding AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs would we lead out on the turn as played ?

Check/calling OTT seems right to me and check/folding the river unimproved. Ax is a big part of his range imo and I don't see which worse hands would he bet OTT and OTR. When he checks the turn, I would still check/fold the river vs reasonable size. I don't see him value betting KQ OTR 1/2 pot or bigger, for example.

Why do you bet the flop? And why so big? You cant get 3 streets of value. Most of the turns that complete draws complete your draw, so no protection is necessary. And if you stackoff OTF you are ahead only against A♥::Qx:
Just check the flop and keep his range as wide as possible.
I dont like the bet OTR also. Are you bluffing? Are you vbetting?
Against a regular you will get called by Ax or low flushes a ton. And you probably are going to fold out most sets or 2 pair.
Against a fish you probably get a very thin value from worse, but a fish could also have a 9♥: there which he will not fold.

x/c otf would have been my approache.
x/c ott, because we have lot of outs
x/f otr

I can agree with betting OTF. Turn is a xc and river xf. There are too many better hands.

Originally posted by nsavov
Why do you bet the flop? And why so big? You cant get 3 streets of value. Most of the turns that complete draws complete your draw, so no protection is necessary.

I was not betting with a plan to get 3 streets of value. Neither I was betting for protection. I was betting to be able to get more money in if heart comes against his two pairs, sets and straights.

Originally posted by nsavov
And if you stackoff OTF you are ahead only against A♥::Qx:

Interesting point. I think I would just call his raise OTF with a same plan as I mentioned.

Originally posted by nsavov
I dont like the bet OTR also. Are you bluffing? Are you vbetting?

Yea, this is actually the crucial reason why I posted the hand. I think I ahould have check-fold there actually (important note: as played!).

Originally posted by nsavov
And you probably are going to fold out most sets or 2 pair.

Not sure about that. As played I think many two pairs can actually call.

Originally posted by la55i
I can agree with betting OTF. Turn is a xc and river xf. There are too many better hands.

Could u elaborate more pls ?

Originally posted by Tyrion88
x/c otf would have been my approache.
x/c ott, because we have lot of outs
x/f otr

Ok, could u please explain why the fact of us having lot of outs means we should checkcall instead of betting? And why is xc otf and otr your approache ? Thx

Originally posted by msnek

Originally posted by la55i
I can agree with betting OTF. Turn is a xc and river xf. There are too many better hands.

Could u elaborate more pls ?

Yes
On the flop we can cbet because we might very well be ahead at the moment but we don't want to let villain see any free cards. He will call with most of the pairs that hit on the flop and with draws also.
On the turn we improve but since villain called on this scary flop and not any Ax and 9x has a straight, we are in way ahead/way behind situation. That is why I think it is better not to pump the pot, but we can still call because we have decent equity against stronger hands.
And on the river, if villain bets here, I think we have to fold. There are just too many better hands. Maybe if he bets small we can bluff catch.

I agree with your flop bet and your turn check, but on the river it's x/f imo. If we bet we just turn our hand into a bluff.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by msnek

Originally posted by la55i
I can agree with betting OTF. Turn is a xc and river xf. There are too many better hands.

Could u elaborate more pls ?

Yes
On the flop we can cbet because we might very well be ahead at the moment but we don't want to let villain see any free cards. He will call with most of the pairs that hit on the flop and with draws also.
On the turn we improve but since villain called on this scary flop and not any Ax and 9x has a straight, we are in way ahead/way behind situation. That is why I think it is better not to pump the pot, but we can still call because we have decent equity against stronger hands.
And on the river, if villain bets here, I think we have to fold. There are just too many better hands. Maybe if he bets small we can bluff catch.

I see ! Agreed, thanks !

Originally posted by msnek

Originally posted by Tyrion88
x/c otf would have been my approache.
x/c ott, because we have lot of outs
x/f otr

Ok, could u please explain why the fact of us having lot of outs means we should checkcall instead of betting? And why is xc otf and otr your approache ? Thx

OTF: On such a flop I don't want to barrel 3 streets and I don't want to stack off. Since we have covered a lot of draws, i would x/c like a medium hand/mid pair. I think we might be ahead, but not necessarily against his calling range. If we x/c he can bluff a few combos or even protecting hands like AJ, AQ, KQs, TT+
OTT: We have 10 outs i guess. The reason for not betting is: We don't want to get reraised i guess. But with the impliedo-odds a call should be fine. Another thing is, we still have showdown value against a part of his range that he is betting for protection or bluff again. for example AhX hands and TT-QQ
OTR: You missread this. I would x/f. I would do it because, all the hands, that he bet for protection will now take the check-behind and we win. I don't assume he will bet once more with his sets. If we had improved, i'm not sure. I guess i would have done a really big bet against his flushes and straights.

glad you asked

u said:
- we have a lot of outs
- you dont want to 3 barrel
- you dont want to stack off

those are the reasons why you are not betting this flop?

We dont have to 3 barrel just because we will bet the flop. If we wouldnt bet on all flops we are not comfortable to stackoff we would be missing a ton of value, so I dont feel this is a self alone another reason not to bet.

BTW: Why you are not comfortable to stackoff? Against many kinds of raising range it seems like we have ~45-50% equity.

Interesting hand.

First: I am playing NL2 and my thought-process is maybe wrong. (That you can give the right amount of value to my opinion.)

Second:
A raising range could be TT+ and AK. AhQx. If he calls 50% of AA pre, you are right. It's 45.31%. (didn't recognize that)

The main reason why I didn't want to bet flop is, that I didn't see a reason. Defending range could be: TT+, AQ+, AJs+, KQs
We can't value bet since I think every hand but AJs will call.
We can't bluff bet since I think every hand but AJs will call. ^^

Putting this into Equilab I realized that we can actually value bet the flop with 52.5%.
Well. May be it just makes no big difference if we bet flop or not. Unless you tell me different.