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Raise flop with top pair.

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Apollos92
Joined: 09.02.2016

Should I have raised the flop here?

PokerStars - $0.10/$0.20 (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 7.6 BB (VPIP: 62.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
Hero (CO): 14.9 BB
BTN: 22.8 BB (VPIP: 65.79, PFR: 2.63, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 39)
SB: 23.9 BB (VPIP: 24.73, PFR: 10.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 97)
BB: 52.55 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)

SB posts SB 0.25 BB, BB posts BB 0.5 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 0.75 BB) Hero has 7♠ A♠

UTG calls 0.5 BB, Hero calls 0.5 BB, BTN calls 0.5 BB, SB calls 0.25 BB, BB checks

Flop: (2.5 BB, 5 players) 5♠ 3♣ 7♥
SB bets 0.5 BB, BB calls 0.5 BB, UTG calls 0.5 BB, Hero calls 0.5 BB, fold

Turn: (4.5 BB, 4 players) 4♠
SB bets 1 BB, BB calls 1 BB, fold, Hero calls 1 BB

River: (7.5 BB, 3 players) A♥
SB checks, BB bets 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB, fold

BB shows 5♦ 2♦ (Straight, Five High)
(Pre 37%, Flop 18%, Turn 15%)
Hero mucks 7♠ A♠ (Two Pair, Aces and Sevens)
(Pre 63%, Flop 82%, Turn 85%)
BB wins 9.05 BB


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31 replies
YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Raise preflop!


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Moderator
SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

I moved the hand to the hand discussion board, because it’s fits better there.
I would raise pre-flop as well and raise the flop for value as played.

Cheers,
SDK1987


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DAIMA2
Joined: 12.04.2011

It is very possible that alk except perhaps sb would see flop and if So seeing sb the 3 previous to call even if 1 raises he would call
So flop raised before or not would have 4 or 5 players
With So many players a7s is good to play but not raised because almost the 1thing you can bet with confiddence is the flash
With 4or 3 opponents if an ace was at flop you must call and without 7 or flash you could loose all the bets till river
So call before flop is ok
But at the flop and the turn i would raise and if i did So and 2 players stayed at the river and bb donked i would depending in my previous store with bb call or gold despite the 2pairs


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DAIMA2
Joined: 12.04.2011

Not gold fold


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

With one limper in the CO a preflop raise is mandatory. You want the button and the blinds out to play heads up with dead money from the blinds, position and initiative.
With two limpers and on the button, a call is an alternative. Then you want SB and BB in for a cheap multiway pot with a drawing hand. Then be prepared to fold flop with much action, even when hitting an A (and no FD). Your kicker is not impressive. Hitting TPTK (like here) means you usually don't fold on the flop.


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You are playing such a low limit that I totally disagree that you can shut players out pre flop with a raise. Also, the value in A7 suited is when you flop a really big hand like trips or a flush on which case you want as many players in the hand as possible. As the hand played out I think calling the flop to evaluate on the turn is ok, terrible turn card to continue the hand and worse river. I think alot of low limit players fail to recognize you can't protect yr hand at these limits and what is most profitable is to capitalize on your opponents biggest flaw, they call you down way too often so just bet your big hands aggressively and avoid marginal spots at the lower limits. When you move up in limits you can worry about isolating opponents, proteting your hands,etc


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GrindingNajra
Joined: 07.09.2011

Raise pre and rerraie on the flop. Bet flop turn when checked to you or call a bet like you did on the turn. River bet when checked to youu and call if bet by villain.


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DAIMA2
Joined: 12.04.2011

What loveomaha writes is critical
In low limits you cant throw out opponents easy
So sometimes with medium value hands not raising is better
In this hand with vpip big numbers of button and bb it is very possible that they will call even if you raise
A7s is a good hand to play with many opponents but with low cost to see the flop
So before flop call
After that i wrote at previous message


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

If the button and SB insist on calling a raise with 52s, that is good news too. By just calling you aren't letting them make their primary mistake, which is calling too much. They'd be making small mistakes, or no mistakes at all. This is not what you want.


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arttuzulu
Joined: 31.12.2016

Yep, raise preflop, raise flop. Not easiest hand to play and emotionally..


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ureyer
Joined: 02.04.2005

I think raise preflop is here absolutely viable, the stats are pretty much worthless after only a few hands. Overcalling is actually fish play; it is certainly not a serious mistake here but it is a bad habit.

As played raise flop and raise turn.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Yes. Calling is fish play. The reason it is so easy to beat microstakes is that they play like fish. We don't beat it by playing like fish.


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DAIMA2
Joined: 12.04.2011

Generally talking call is fish play
But at that hand
Utg limped
Lets suppose hero raises
Button stats tells that he would call
So sb seeing 3 already at the hand and assuming that bb would call
Will call also and it is good for him to do that because he must put 0.75 bb
And after the call of the 5 players the pot would be 5bb
as bb will call for the same reason
So what you prefere with a7s if before your turn to bet or to limp preflop
If you know that whatever you do 4 others players would see the flop
To bet or to limp?
Bet is good if
Or you have a good hand or if you think that somebody would fold
Hero can see now at that session before and after that hand how many times these players folded before flop after 1raise and make his conclusions
Myopinionis that he wouldsee few folds


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ureyer
Joined: 02.04.2005

Originally posted by DAIMA2
But at that hand
Utg limped
Lets suppose hero raises
Button stats tells that he would call
So sb seeing 3 already at the hand and assuming that bb would call
Will call also and it is good for him to do that because he must put 0.75 bb
And after the call of the 5 players the pot would be 5bb
as bb will call for the same reason
So what you prefere with a7s if before your turn to bet or to limp preflop
If you know that whatever you do 4 others players would see the flop
To bet or to limp?

As I have already pointed out the stats are worthless. And of course it is (at least a tiny bit) more likely to get a fold from BTN if you raise.
But even if we get 3 more callers: We have a quite good position and our equity is above average. And hopefully our skill is above average as well. :f_biggrin:
So what is the problem of playing a big pot?


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Originally posted by DAIMA2
Generally talking call is fish play
But at that hand
Utg limped
Lets suppose hero raises
Button stats tells that he would call
So sb seeing 3 already at the hand and assuming that bb would call
Will call also and it is good for him to do that because he must put 0.75 bb
And after the call of the 5 players the pot would be 5bb
as bb will call for the same reason
So what you prefere with a7s if before your turn to bet or to limp preflop
If you know that whatever you do 4 others players would see the flop
To bet or to limp?
Bet is good if
Or you have a good hand or if you think that somebody would fold
Hero can see now at that session before and after that hand how many times these players folded before flop after 1raise and make his conclusions
Myopinionis that he wouldsee few folds

Brain-fart.

If you see no folds holding A7s, you miss value by not raising. You very much want them to call two bets with shit like T2s and A20.

Unfortunately, this forum is stone-dead, but only a couple of years ago you'd get your but kicked badly if you ever advocated limping preflop. I'm not that categorical, and I'd not see an overlimp with small suited connectors as horrible. But overlimping with A7s is truly horrible.


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DAIMA2
Joined: 12.04.2011

This hand does not play well except if an A or 2 77 or a flash draw
A lot a lot of flops without flash draw as K82,Q63,j52 and others with a lot of opponents cannot be continiued by hero
I.e
Suppose that if you make cb and have 2calls with the first flop i mentioned
That means that till river it is very possible that you will pass or loose if dont pass
Perhaps with a pair of 88
So youwillcontiniue with few hands
So you want to see cheap the flop so you call


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ureyer
Joined: 02.04.2005

Originally posted by DAIMA2
This hand does not play well except if an A or 2 77 or a flash draw
A lot a lot of flops without flash draw as K82,Q63,j52 and others with a lot of opponents cannot be continiued by hero
I.e
Suppose that if you make cb and have 2calls with the first flop i mentioned
That means that till river it is very possible that you will pass or loose if dont pass
Perhaps with a pair of 88
So youwillcontiniue with few hands
So you want to see cheap the flop so you call

In a multiway pot you do not need to win too many hands to be profitable. The point is you will win big time if you hit because players who call a lot preflop usually call down with far too many hands postflop.
Additionally you are not comitted to play a contibet if you don't like the flop. There is only one (or may be none) player behind us, so if it is checked to us with i.e. Q54 we just check as well hoping for the freecard.


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DAIMA2
Joined: 12.04.2011

Lets see eguity with 4 opponents
1 hero 19,5 % 2 Ah2c 8,8% 3 Ks8c 23% 4 Qh8s 15,9% 5 5c6c 25,2% at that hand 2 more spades and 1A
All changes from the previous hand
If we change hand 3 at Kh8c that is 1 spade more equity of hero is 21,4%
If we change hand 3 at Ks9c the equity of hero is 17,1%
If we change hand 3 at kh7c the equity of hero is 16,5%
So with a bad ace at one opponent things areno good for hero
Now nobody else has A
We change hand 2 from the first hand at 2h2c equity of hero is 28,6% if the hand 2 is 2s2c equity of hero(eoh) is 27,4%
We change and the hand 2 at 2s 2c and the hand 3 at Ks9s eoh is 21,2% if ecxept these 2changes we change and hand
4 at Qh7h eoh is 20,2%
Things are little better now for hero ecpecially if 2 opponents at least have the same kind of card lets say 88 and nobody has 7 and ofcourse A and there are few spades at opponent hands
but you must agree that the result is that if an opponent has an ace even bad one if hero new that he must only called and with 4opponents this is very possible
Now if nobody has a and hero new that from 1point he must raise because he has more than average equity ,from the other point hero with raise gives information to opponents that would be not available to aggressive play and to continiue play if an ace is at the flop or after
So from all these as loveomaha says at low limits with no foldequity before flop call is the wright desicsion
At higher stakes where opponents respect raises and there is fold equity raise is better


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ureyer
Joined: 02.04.2005

You are playing against ranges not single hands. If we hardly get any fold the equity is like this:

http://www.power-equilab.com
Equity Win Tie
MP3 17.59% 16.26% 1.34% { 66-22, A7s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q2s, J9s-J2s, T2s+, 95s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A9o-A2o, KTo-K2o, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
CO 24.78% 22.61% 2.17% { As7s }
BU 17.87% 16.62% 1.25% { 77-22, A9s-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, ATo-A2o, K2o+, Q3o+, J6o+, T6o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o, 43o }
SB 21.39% 20.01% 1.38% { 88-22, ATs-A2s, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, ATo-A7o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
BB 18.37% 17.11% 1.26% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AJo-A2o, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 64o+, 53o+, 43o }

So more than 24% (=4% above average. This is a huge edge!) equity 5handed, good position and a skill advantage = raise!


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