KK in 4bet pot

4b size is ok, maybe a bit smaller is fine too, board is very dry u can check flop too, and bet size is too big (its 4b pot stacks go in easly anyways, and ranges are not that wide that BU might draw for free). As played you are pot committed find very hard to fold

We are OOP so 4b a little bit bigger is not a mistake.
OTF the board is wet not dry. Dry flop is K72...
If you are about to fold vs aggression, you should bet smaller on flop.

Originally posted by nitrol
OTF the board is wet not dry. Dry flop is K72...

i feel T92 rainbow its pretty dry, i can be wrong though. Dry in relation of a 4b pot

Originally posted by nitrol
We are OOP so 4b a little bit bigger is not a mistake.
OTF the board is wet not dry. Dry flop is K72...
If you are about to fold vs aggression, you should bet smaller on flop.

but do we ever want to fold?
at the time I thought AA is the only thing in his range that beats us... I never would of imagine that he would call the 4bet with 99... Really getting tilted this session

No comment on 4bet size.
When it is a 4bet pot I would consider this board as quite dry. Your flop bet sizing is too big in a 4bet pot. I agree that you can check the flop but if you bet it should be a lot smaller. Now you are committed, probably facing sets but still have to call

Originally posted by la55i
No comment on 4bet size.
When it is a 4bet pot I would consider this board as quite dry. Your flop bet sizing is too big in a 4bet pot. I agree that you can check the flop but if you bet it should be a lot smaller. Now you are committed, probably facing sets but still have to call
So we should actually expect sets here?
isn't it major -EV for him to call preflop with 9s???

The fact is that villain will push all top hands. When he calls the 4b this is mostly JJ-99 and some suited stuff..
So this board hits him hard and is not dry.

This all depends on villains range. I wouldn't even 3bet 99 or TT here but if I would those hands might call a 4bet. KK+ is probably shoving pre.
I don't see many suited connectors, at least not so small they would connect with this board.

Your line looks strong and your bet size is big. KK+ would shove pre. You leave so small stack left that villain doesn't have any fold equity. What hands do we expect him to raise shove OTF? I would say that if villain goes broke OTF with JJ or QQ he is making a bigger mistake than he will by calling pre with TT or 99.

I think villain can call our 4bet with AQs+,AKo (sometimes maybe AJs too?) and pocket pairs apparently 99+. Those Ax hands and JJ,QQ are beat. I really wouldn't say that range hits super hard on this board.
We have many times fought about whether the board is wet or dry and I still believe it can be something in between. We can also describe the board with words static and dynamic. There are not many cards that will make things horrible for us. We are either way ahead or way behind. Probably way ahead vs a reasonable range.

J,Q,A, 9, T can make things worse for us...

he setmined with rags and sucked out on you, nothing you can do. even if he gets your stack 100% of the time when he hits a set hes still expected to lose in the long run.

You can C-Bet smaller but stacks go in eather way

on the other hand if you get in 25% of your stack in preflop and fold after c-betting this is a leak that is easily abusable.
(unless board is 89Ts or another ultra wet one).

Are you sure villain is losing if he gets hero's stack every time he hits? My calculations show that it break even.
Stacks might or might not go in. We should cbet much smaller to keep villains range wider and to leave some room for folding vs a raise.

With that "stacks go in either way" logic we could just shove every good hand OTF. Then we would probably get a lot of folds and get called by only better hands. So the expected value between different bet sizes can be big.

what calculations did you make that you ended up breakeven? just for my interest

Originally posted by la55i

With that "stacks go in either way" logic we could just shove every good hand OTF. Then we would probably get a lot of folds and get called by only better hands. So the expected value between different bet sizes can be big.

you are right, it feels like a leak if hero raises that big on every 4bet pot-flop. but the way i said it i thought this is obvious. stacks go in if he c-bets 10% or if he cbets 100%. This is a very well executet 4b pot where Hero should get it in 100% of the time on any flop unless ultra wet or an ace or a high pair (i.o QQ5 (and even then I would lose a good chunk of my stack like 33% of the times (to keep them honest) if villain is smart, simply because to much money is in the middle already and i cannot fold 100% of the time, i am on the top of my range there! imagine we cbet 30% flop, check turn and he bets 50% river, can you fold 100% of the times?arent there more combos of 88-JJ trying to get value from AK? If i fold there 100% there thats an easy spot where i can get exploited! but thats another point, sorry for drifting away)

I hope that didn't came at you offensivly, I didn't mean it that way ♦ I am just sharing my thoughts which might be completely wrong.

i guess you can see i am not a big fan of folding overpairs in 4b pots! ♦

Suggestion to Handposter, don't show result!

The pot is 1.77$ after hero 4bets.
Villain has to call 0.8$ to see the flop.
If we assume villain wins our whole stack always when he hits -> he would risk 0.8$ to win the pot+hero's stack =5.57$. And he will win it 12%.

Then we just do a simple EV calculation. (0.12 * 5.57) - (0.88 * 0.8) = pretty close to 0.

Take rake and the fact that villain doesn't get hero's whole stack every time into consideration and I can agree that villain made a slight -EV call.

i deleted my math approach since it used wrong spots

Originally posted by la55i
The pot is 1.77$ after hero 4bets.
Villain has to call 0.8$ to see the flop.
If we assume villain wins our whole stack always when he hits -> he would risk 0.8$ to win the pot+hero's stack =5.57$. And he will win it 12%.

Then we just do a simple EV calculation. (0.12 * 5.57) - (0.88 * 0.8) = pretty close to 0.

Take rake and the fact that villain doesn't get hero's whole stack every time into consideration and I can agree that villain made a slight -EV call.

so you put ranges on villain , but calculate based on my exact hand? isn't this way too result oriented?
Don't I play this the same way preflop with more hands other than KK?

Sorry I don't follow. We were discussing whether villain made a mistake when he called pre with 99. And I just calculated that it is break even for him IF he gets your whole stack every time he hits.

Originally posted by kr0daking

Originally posted by nitrol
We are OOP so 4b a little bit bigger is not a mistake.
OTF the board is wet not dry. Dry flop is K72...
If you are about to fold vs aggression, you should bet smaller on flop.

but do we ever want to fold?
at the time I thought AA is the only thing in his range that beats us... I never would of imagine that he would call the 4bet with 99... Really getting tilted this session

no way you are folding, hands that would push here are AA (you would have called a push preflop anyway), QQ, JJ, maybe butthurt AK, AT

It is not that big mistake on villain 's side to call.
I do not agree with the initial 3b but maybe he is 3b you depolarised for some reason.

I think your play is ok, you could have bet smaller on the flop but certainly would not have folded to a raise anyways.
I don't like the way vilains played his hand, he should just call the flop and let you shove the turn.