QQ line check 3bet pot

The only slowplayed hand I see are JJ. This also brings me to the betting size. We shouldn't bet so much OTR since not many weaker value hands will call you off here. What hands did you want to call OTR?

AJs KJs QJs possibly might have AJo in his range aslo , its also possible however doubtfull
to push them off a chop. The pot was $9 and i have $6 left i couldn't really see any other bet size i cant ever bet fold in this spot i dont think.

With these type hands i'm used to taking a bet bet shove line for value but postflop sizings seem to have changed quite drastically these days. Is it best to go smaller flop turn and river and allow myself folds on the river ? i see the benefits of that line getting called down by worse more often but does it lose value ?

I guess most villains call flop turn and fold river unimproved if they only have 1 pair holdings and cant beat over pairs vs a line that is setting up stacks on the river ?

From my last coaching sessions and video tutorials, it is best to lower bet sizing indeed. Flop should be around 50-65% most of the time, turn often not more than 50% psb and river highly depends what cards you want villain to call you.

I just didn't figure i could ever bet fold the river here so i thought best to just jam . Not really a spot i wanted to put myself in a position of facing a river raise given the spr. And i don't think i can ever check fold river.

In a 3bet pot what do you think of the 1/3p flop 1/3p turn and 50% river line .That would leave $4 behind on the river, can i bet fold river in that spot ? because i'm oop the pots already bigger given the 3bet size .Its hard to take a bet flop bet turn line that doesn't set up a river shove. As it is my shoves only like 2/3p on the river.

Better hands are going to stack you off regardless of whether you shove or bet/call the river, so you might as well try to size your bet to maximize your EV against weaker hands that might call you. The reason to bet smaller is that you want weaker hands to call, and it's unlikely that villain will call a large bet on the river.

@Grokken given the price i just think its hard for villain to fold top pair and his worse hands never shove. So i don't really want to be in a pot committed situation facing the shove. People can call far wider than they can raise. That's the reason i jammed given the stack sizes. Not sure how correct my thinking is though with this line.

In fact I do not see him calling a large bet on river with weaker.
If we bet, we should bet smaller on all streets.
JJ,99 are possible.

Sizing pattern 50% - 46% - 64% is funny. Something like 65% - 50% - 35% is more natural and should get more calls (from worse hands).

Then whether you want to bet OTR is another Q. It might depend on what he does with Jx to the extent he has it. I have no idea what he does with it, but my preference is to bet rather than check-call. (This would be different if there were more money behind. Now we can't get bluff raised out of the pot.)

Him possibly holding 99/JJ is irrelevant with remaining stacks. We lose our stack in that case regardless.

Originally posted by YohanN7
Sizing pattern 50% - 46% - 64% is funny. Something like 65% - 50% - 35% is more natural and should get more calls (from worse hands)..

I was just using the preset half pot button on flop and turn which set up the shove. I use the presets of 30% 50% 70% with my bets.

Originally posted by BingoWings

Originally posted by YohanN7
Sizing pattern 50% - 46% - 64% is funny. Something like 65% - 50% - 35% is more natural and should get more calls (from worse hands)..

I was just using the preset half pot button on flop and turn which set up the shove. I use the presets of 30% 50% 70% with my bets.

Right there is a part of your game you can unambiguously improve with little effort. (No, you didn't set up the shove properly.)

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by BingoWings

Originally posted by YohanN7
Sizing pattern 50% - 46% - 64% is funny. Something like 65% - 50% - 35% is more natural and should get more calls (from worse hands)..

I was just using the preset half pot button on flop and turn which set up the shove. I use the presets of 30% 50% 70% with my bets.

Right there is a part of your game you can unambiguously improve with little effort. (No, you didn't set up the shove properly.)

It's a 2/3p river shove or there abouts. Sizing might need looking at but i don't think its terrible.

It's a 3bet pot also so i don't think i need to be betting 2/3p on the flop i think 50% or even 30% pot is fine there depending how i want to play the hand out on turns and rivers , and whether or not i'm playing a two or three street game.

My postflop sizing have been mentioned before though so ill definitely look into it more.

villain is not fullstacked, so he is fishy guy, we flopped overpair therefore I assume we have a monster. I cut my thoughtprocess here and I just want to pump in all money I have behind, easy.
that being said - I dont even understand that talk about smaller betsizes on any street, I find it pretty ridiculous... I mean I would bet bigger evreywhre, what do you tihnk that fish does with KT for example? He calls 2.1$ OTT but folds to 2.8$? Come on, really... With smaller betsizes the only thing you achieve is him making smaller mistake with drawy hands and winning smaller pot once he misses. If he hits you loose everything anyway so...

Originally posted by Hesticus
We shouldn't bet so much OTR since not many weaker value hands will call you off here. What hands did you want to call OTR?

Originally posted by nitrol
In fact I do not see him calling a large bet on river with weaker.

I mean - have you guys ever seen fish calling down whole stack with 2nd pairs? Have you ever seen fish show up with hand like JTo in 3bp and put all money in? Have you ever seen fish doing something stupid?

What more you guys want if you are scared to shove overpairs vs fish in 3bp, there shouldnt even be a discussion in my oppinion

Edit:

Originally posted by BingoWings
do you 3bet QQ in the SB vs MP ?

Always.

MP never once raised your bet so he probably had a weaker hand. A shove on the river might have given him cause to think you're bluffing which is probably what you were trying to achieve. The problem with this approach is that now you give the villain 2 options. Either call or fold. So to him it's pretty clear where he stands. You either have a better hand than him or it's a bluff and he will only need to work out which of the two he believes more likely.

Had you made a 50% or smaller bet though he would have some real thinking to do. He can't easily put you on a hand because you've been betting consistently all the way and he can't dismiss the possibility of a bluff or a trap. On top of this he must now also figure out whether he actually has the better hand or not as you haven't given much away. So now he must decide to either fold, call or push. This is why you'll get called here more often because the villain will often go for what he perceives as the save option which is to just call or occasionally even push if he thinks he's got a read that you're bluffing but he'll rarely fold because you're giving him good enough odds to make the call.

Originally posted by BingoWings
...
It's a 2/3p river shove or there abouts. Sizing might need looking at but i don't think its terrible.

It's a 3bet pot also so i don't think i need to be betting 2/3p on the flop i think 50% or even 30% pot is fine there depending how i want to play the hand out on turns and rivers , and whether or not i'm playing a two or three street game.

My postflop sizing have been mentioned before though so ill definitely look into it more.

Yes, you definitely should look into it. I'd recommend No Limit Hold'em - Theory and Practice by Sklansky and Malmuth. They take the view that bet sizing is the most important part of the game. There are no ready answers in percentages, but it tells you how you should think, and it does present mathematical formulas for calculation of the proper size (once you have figured out the parameters, like average number of outs on part of villain, etc).

One easy fact is that flop bets quite generally should be larger than turn bets, turn bets, in turn, should be larger than river bets. While there are exceptions (and occasional pure deception is one of these), the logic behind it is set in stone, and easy to figure out. So a 30-50-70 pattern is not often to recommend.

Originally posted by N3bojsa
villain is not fullstacked, so he is fishy guy, we flopped overpair therefore I assume we have a monster. I cut my thoughtprocess here and I just want to pump in all money I have behind, easy.
that being said - I dont even understand that talk about smaller betsizes on any street, I find it pretty ridiculous... I mean I would bet bigger evreywhre, what do you tihnk that fish does with KT for example? He calls 2.1$ OTT but folds to 2.8$? Come on, really... With smaller betsizes the only thing you achieve is him making smaller mistake with drawy hands and winning smaller pot once he misses. If he hits you loose everything anyway so...

Originally posted by Hesticus
We shouldn't bet so much OTR since not many weaker value hands will call you off here. What hands did you want to call OTR?

Originally posted by nitrol
In fact I do not see him calling a large bet on river with weaker.

I mean - have you guys ever seen fish calling down whole stack with 2nd pairs? Have you ever seen fish show up with hand like JTo in 3bp and put all money in? Have you ever seen fish doing something stupid?

What more you guys want if you are scared to shove overpairs vs fish in 3bp, there shouldnt even be a discussion in my oppinion

I understand your reasoning. However, what we want in our discussions is the application of the right principles in poker. That is, we want to play as optimal as possible and we will not achieve this by making ourselves too exploitative. If this is a winning strategy of yours - by all means - however, much research has been done on bet sizing on all streets and we feel most comfortable applying a sound strategy.

sure, you can go ahead and play super balanced non exploitable strategy vs fish (=player who doesnt give a f*** about that), or finaly make money...

Originally posted by Hesticus
however, much research has been done on bet sizing on all streets and we feel most comfortable applying a sound strategy.

Can I see that research pls? Id like to improve my game aswell, cause from what Ive learned so far, maximizing ev vs fish is one of best ways to improve winrate (since fish wil never punnish us for not being balanced), so Id like to fix my leaks aswell

My best advice would be to check out some videos of w34z3l. He is giving excellent advice of how to play at the micros. He uses the most updated theory and if you follow him (w34z3l) you most likely will have an advantage over others at the micros Not only this page in the link but he comes with regular updates. I see you have Bronze status and these are for Gold members. There are various ways to achieve Gold status. Check out this page, this should help. It may sound like a lot of work to just see the videos but trust me, it's worth it Next to this, we have a whole bunch of strategy articles, which are very good as well and it's tailored to your needs.

An alternative would be to read one of these books. Some are very good for strategy such as 'The Education of a Modern Poker Player' but for advanced players in my opinion (and I don't fall in that category ) However, depending on what limit you play and what you already know, perhaps this should help. Books give concise information from literature and experience what you need to play optimally. If you are not sure, you can always ask the question on our forum. If you want to read extensive information only, I'd advice to search via Google Scholar, however, that is a way I do not recommend since your goal isn't to dig down into too much background but you want to know the most optimal play.

Hope this helps I think you can see with the amount of information that the best way to learn more theory of the game is to really work on it and find the best way that fits you. GL and if you have any questions, feel free to let me know.

The error is not getting it in versus a presumably weak player. The error is not setting up the river shove properly. The river bet is too big (hence easily folded to). This is important. Not all fish are equally easy to relieve of their money, and far from all of them hate money more than they like it. A big flop bet is easily called. A big river bet is not. Even fish sense this to some degree, and maximizing EV is probably easiest achieved by big-medium-small bets.

Hesticus' advice about reading books is good. Vids are more entertainment than something you actually learn from. By learning I mean understanding, not memorizing ranges or bet sizes.

Damn, thanks for pointing out YohanN7 haha, then mistake is on my side offcourse. I probably shouldve articulated myself better, I said in initial post that I wouldve made bigger bets earlier and that would end up with smaller spr OTR kind of naturaly... Now your posts make perfect sense