QQ CO 3-bet pot, river play?

As played i make a crying call on the river and hope for AJ. I like a 4bet pre though with the intentions of getting it in. Your not UTG , It's BTN Vs C/O so villain should have a very wide 3bet range.

I'm not a lover of calling hands oop in 3bet pots and if your not 4betting QQ from these positions what hands do you 4bet KK+ ? , which seems very tight to me and makes it hard to get paid with your big hands. As your just not getting played back at enough and peoples ranges shrink upto KK+ themselves vs you.

Yes, I 3-bet this guy only with KK+. Sorry, I made a mistake in the topic title.

Against the whale I stack of much wider(AQ+, JJ+) So it depends on position.

btn vs c/o is the probably the most aggressive dynamic at the table so i think you can easily 4bet and gii with QQ+ AK from these positions vs regs. KK+ is likely to tight, What happens is ranges just shrink upto kk+ vs each other and no one bluffs.

I mean if you only 4bet KK+ vs people especially from a position with the dynamics of btn vs c/o how do you ever expect to get paid with big hands. You would need to do some work on ranges though as getting in unbalanced ranges of QQ+ AK with no bluffs likely isn't going to turn out very well for you. I do it myself a'lot and you end up just playing a weak tight game.

Hey,

It's nl2. So there is no aggressive dynamic bu vs co. People don't think that way. Sorry but against a tighter opponent I expect him to have more of the KK+ side of the world. And it's not my goal at the moment to have excellent ranges 3bet preflop bu vs co.

I had a question can you more elaborate on the question in the openings post.

How wide do you think he 3bets does he have all combos of AJ can he have all or some combos of KJ ?

I mean if hes only 3betting you with a really tight range say QQ+,AQs-AJs,A5s-A2s , and hes only value betting the river with made hands QQ+,AJs,AhQh,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah3h,Ah2h so flushes and AJ QQ+ then youd have 13% equity and its a really easy fold.

If he has a bluffing range and has say all combos of AJ perhaps some combos of kJ it becomes a call. Its all going to depend on his 3bet frequencies and what he has left to value bet on the river.

76 hands isn't really enough to make any great assumptions on villains range , id make the call on the river our hand strength is very much underrepped and i think villain can have bluffs and worse value hands. Although i wouldn't say i'm in love with the call.

I would add that his line and bet sizing makes me think its KK AA a ton here that didn't like the flush turn but now wants to get more value on the river when you check it. Also maybe JJ that now has a full house possibly QQ although your blocking that hand.

If he has AJ KJ he might not value bet it 100% especially KJ and if he is value betting those type hands they probably aren't going any where near that sizing id expect more like .20 or .30 to try and get some light calls from 9x and hands like pocket 66 77 maybe some ace high heroes. Which is why i said crying call in my original response i think our hand strength is just so underrepped which makes it the call for me , but i don't like the call that much.

Hero calls.

He calls (and expects to lose most of the times, but by no means all of the time) because he gets such wonderful odds and since he has portrayed weakness on pretty much all streets and because he is close to the top of his range. Guessing villain's hand is in such cases a waste of time.

As far as hand reading goes, what does villain put hero on? Right, mostly an overpair (QQ in fact) since hero didn't bet river (excluding the flush). Since hero knows villain well "(he doesn't bluff"), villain knows hero well. Don't underestimate villain's brain power. He might well bluff expecting you to fold your overpair. Since it is NL 2, also don't overestimate villain's brain power. He might be betting weak value like QJo. This is no proof by itself, hence one reverts to reasoning in previous paragraph. Odds are simply to big to get clever and cute.

I like how you played the hand, don't 4bet pre ! Really only KK+ calls or shoves on 2NL, very rarely AK. There is no 4bet bluffing in 2NL.

I'm deffo calling river. Sure we will loose sometimes, but we have a very underrepped hand so he could be bluffing or trying to get the pot with a lesser hand quite often

Originally posted by TurokRider
I like how you played the hand, don't 4bet pre ! Really only KK+ calls or shoves on 2NL, very rarely AK. There is no 4bet bluffing in 2NL.

I'm deffo calling river. Sure we will loose sometimes, but we have a very underrepped hand so he could be bluffing or trying to get the pot with a lesser hand quite often

Our hand would be underrepped because we didn't take the usual line which in this case is to 4bet . Its like flatting AA KK pre it unexpected so our hand strength is underrepped. And are you sure no one 3bet bluffs, spazzes out or stacks off lighter at 2nl ?

I personally know one guy who does bluff, regardless of limit:]

Pre's whatever with the small sample
Just snap the river, you can't be folding in these positions with how well you under-repped your hand
If you have 1k+hands and he always has value then you can think about it

Originally posted by YohanN7
Hero calls.

He calls (and expects to lose most of the times, but by no means all of the time) because he gets such wonderful odds and since he has portrayed weakness on pretty much all streets and because he is close to the top of his range. Guessing villain's hand is in such cases a waste of time.

As far as hand reading goes, what does villain put hero on? Right, mostly an overpair (QQ in fact) since hero didn't bet river (excluding the flush). Since hero knows villain well "(he doesn't bluff"), villain knows hero well. Don't underestimate villain's brain power. He might well bluff expecting you to fold your overpair. Since it is NL 2, also don't overestimate villain's brain power. He might be betting weak value like QJo. This is no proof by itself, hence one reverts to reasoning in previous paragraph. Odds are simply to big to get clever and cute.

I like this approach.

Originally posted by LemOn36
Pre's whatever with the small sample
Just snap the river, you can't be folding in these positions with how well you under-repped your hand
If you have 1k+hands and he always has value then you can think about it

I got a graph of 125 samples where I called river, leaving me in a deficient minus on the river. So I expect they have only value on the river when they bet. So although I underrepped my hand, I have to fold the river when they bet. Cause they don't bluff that well?

Originally posted by BingoWings

Originally posted by TurokRider
I like how you played the hand, don't 4bet pre ! Really only KK+ calls or shoves on 2NL, very rarely AK. There is no 4bet bluffing in 2NL.

I'm deffo calling river. Sure we will loose sometimes, but we have a very underrepped hand so he could be bluffing or trying to get the pot with a lesser hand quite often

Our hand would be underrepped because we didn't take the usual line which in this case is to 4bet . Its like flatting AA KK pre it unexpected so our hand strength is underrepped. And are you sure no one 3bet bluffs, spazzes out or stacks off lighter at 2nl ?

I said nobody 4bet bluffs at 2NL, and no, they don't.

Originally posted by TurokRider

Originally posted by BingoWings

Originally posted by TurokRider
I like how you played the hand, don't 4bet pre ! Really only KK+ calls or shoves on 2NL, very rarely AK. There is no 4bet bluffing in 2NL.

I'm deffo calling river. Sure we will loose sometimes, but we have a very underrepped hand so he could be bluffing or trying to get the pot with a lesser hand quite often

Our hand would be underrepped because we didn't take the usual line which in this case is to 4bet . Its like flatting AA KK pre it unexpected so our hand strength is underrepped. And are you sure no one 3bet bluffs, spazzes out or stacks off lighter at 2nl ?

I said nobody 4bet bluffs at 2NL, and no, they don't.

In this particular situation there is no read that villain is spazzing out with JJ or with AQo or random bluff, like J2s. The villain is pretty tight preflop over 76 hands, could be a lot of variance but I dont think we can estimate his range as particular wide.

But yes on nl2 the maniac will spazz out some of the time given any position. But there are also guys playing 13/9 over 400 hands or so. So we have to go by reads and by observations.

Our hand is worth 2 streets so we cannot fold on river. Call.

Originally posted by nitrol
Our hand is worth 2 streets so we cannot fold on river. Call.

I don't like an defensive approach.

Originally posted by advancedTN1984

Originally posted by YohanN7
Hero calls.

He calls (and expects to lose most of the times, but by no means all of the time) because he gets such wonderful odds and since he has portrayed weakness on pretty much all streets and because he is close to the top of his range. Guessing villain's hand is in such cases a waste of time.

As far as hand reading goes, what does villain put hero on? Right, mostly an overpair (QQ in fact) since hero didn't bet river (excluding the flush). Since hero knows villain well "(he doesn't bluff"), villain knows hero well. Don't underestimate villain's brain power. He might well bluff expecting you to fold your overpair. Since it is NL 2, also don't overestimate villain's brain power. He might be betting weak value like QJo. This is no proof by itself, hence one reverts to reasoning in previous paragraph. Odds are simply to big to get clever and cute.

I like this approach.

Originally posted by LemOn36
Pre's whatever with the small sample
Just snap the river, you can't be folding in these positions with how well you under-repped your hand
If you have 1k+hands and he always has value then you can think about it

I got a graph of 125 samples where I called river, leaving me in a deficient minus on the river. So I expect they have only value on the river when they bet. So although I underrepped my hand, I have to fold the river when they bet. Cause they don't bluff that well?

Just a quick comment about the call river sample, being deficient doesn't mean you should fold more. When you are in the river in a limped pot, villain bets and you fold your winrate with the fold will be -100bb/100. If you do any better than this by calling it means you are positive. Most of the times pots will be much bigger so the fold ev will be much much lower than -100bb/100 so having a negative winrate on the river call doesn't mean folding that call is the worst play.
This concept is similar to those applied to a call3bet winrate or the winrate on blinds. Being negative doesn't mean you are losing money.

I don't know. Calling is in my case many times minus ev.

Folding is always 0ev.

Originally posted by advancedTN1984
I don't know. Calling is in my case many times minus ev.

Folding is always 0ev.

If you analise the money you invested as dead money your folding ev will always be zero BUT that has nothing to do with your river calling winrate that counts the money from previous streets.