huge overbet shove with 2 pair on river

sick, huh. the fact he sucked out on the previous hand means he shouldn't be tilted against you, so that actually adds to folding

I feel it's a fold purely because of calling that amount when there was only like a few $$ in the pot. But it's tough because the guy 3 bet my Utg raise with 52o and then called off the rest of his stack with bottom pair. It was also Friday night so I thought he might even be drunk haha

Normally it's a fold, the pot is so small you have nothing to gain by calling.

But if you have a specifit read, like he did this 3 times in 20 hands, then it becomes a call.

Thanks for feedback.

Was a kinda tough spot but i guess i should of waited until i had seen more. The villain was definatly a fish and went busto not long after, so maybe he does this as spazzes with air and Ax still.

History makes this harder. previous hand he called a 4 bet with 52o, Axx flop got checked back and i shoved blank turn for value he called with bottom pair and hit trips on river.

Everyone who told you this is a fold is a result oriented, self delusional liar.
if the villain shoves with bottom pair, why wouldn't he shove with top pair or middle pair (a.k.a A 10 or K 10 or something similar)?
I would be so happy to call him on that river.

Looking back i guess its a fold.

if you layed down that hand you would regret it much much more when you would find out that he is a fish.
Cheers!

Hi Tomaloc,

the fact he sucked out on the previous hand means he shouldn't be tilted against you

He called a 4bet and an all in shove with bottom pair!!! He doesn't need to be tilted by any player.
HE IS TILTED BY NATURE!!!

so that actually adds to folding

Adds to what ?

Hi FishedOnTheRiverrr,

the pot is so small you have nothing to gain by calling

1.74$ + 25.20$ = 26.94$
Looks big to me

Why so big on the flop and why did you check otr, he's obviously an out of touch fish

Two things:

You obviously don't call that river bet unless you can see his hole cards.

Make a note that you are up against a fish. Not because he overbet the river (you are the fish on that street), but because he slowplayed a AAA set on a very drawy board (and limped with AA). Only EXTREMELY bad players do that.

EDIT: Actually, we should all be very careful about who we label as fish. I have see so many threads where people have been OWNED by fish, reasoning something along the lines of "he can't have a good hand because he's a fish - therefore I call 300 bb with my top pair".

Sure, fish are fish, but they rarely actually hate money or have a low IQ, and what they do makes sense to them. Your job is to figure out their rationale for their moves. This isn't always easy.

EDIT AGAIN: This shows that making a few "mistakes" in poker can be turned into profit. There's nothing wrong in once in a while making bad calls when drawing (as long as it is reasonably cheap). Your slight loss of EV can buy you a tremendously profitable FISH IMAGE. They see you make these bad calls, but don't realize you usually play rationally.

Hi YohanN7,

This shows that making a few "mistakes" in poker can be turned into profit. There's nothing wrong in once in a while making bad calls when drawing (as long as it is reasonably cheap). Your slight loss of EV can buy you a tremendously profitable FISH IMAGE. They see you make these bad calls, but don't realize you usually play rationally.

Thats true, great LAG players utilize this kind of style, but this surely doesn't hold on in these situation.

previous hand he called a 4 bet with 52o, Axx flop got checked back and i shoved blank turn for value he called with bottom pair and hit trips on river.

if this is true, there is no way the villain is a LAG who is trying to alter his image at the table, cause he is messing around with big money. The good LAG players make some inexpensive "mistakes", but play really straightforward when it comes to big pots.

Originally posted by GleDi713
Hi FishedOnTheRiverrr,

the pot is so small you have nothing to gain by calling

1.74$ + 25.20$ = 26.94$
Looks big to me

Hello,

I mean pot odds are not good. Usually, in a spot like this, the fish has something real good. Of course it is also possible he has nothing, he is a fish. But pot odds are not good enough from my point of view to call here. If the pot was already 20BB then its different. Here, because of pot odds, you have to be ahead >50% of the time, I think it is not the case. Plus, why a so called "tilted by nature player" would wait till the river to overbet allin with no possible action after that? It is often the specific value line for this kind of player.

Hi

Usually, in a spot like this, the fish has something real good

Exactly! Did you read the question? By the villain stadards bottom pair is "real good hand " to go all in.
However, based on what I have read in this thread maybe he is not a fish. Considering everyone here folds whenever he raises he might as well be a winner.

standards for calling are different than standards for overbet shipping obv. so i don't think the reasoning checks out but ok

definitely check turn, lethim bluff!

i like to check with good hand. and of course if fish bluff against my monstr hands

Considering were saying his likely to be a fish and judged by his previous hands why would i not bet that turn? i expect him to bet an Ax the majority of the time when i check flop, when he doesnt I feel i have the best hand and i want to get full value from the fish, lots of draws out there+ worse 9s , 9x+combo draws.

If your using the same sizing as you would against a decent player as u do against a fish your losing out on soooo much value, he wont be bothered how juch u bet, he just sees it as a bet, so extract max value.

So overall is it a fold ? seems a mixed response. I think i can wait for better spots considering his a fish and i havnt seen that many hands from him really ?

Originally posted by robstars7
...
So overall is it a fold ? seems a mixed response...

It is imo not generally advisable to ask in a forum about massive overbets (either about making them or calling them). People may just remember what happened last time to them. Or else they try to soul-read villain.

The only reasonably "correct" way to go about is game theory. Sure, you can tweak it according to villain's tendencies, but I wouldn't go too far. In the present spot villain bets $25.20 into a $1.74 pot. For him to be break even on a bluff, he needs to win about 14 times of 15. You should let him do that unless you think he bluffs more than usual or less than usual. If you thinks he is kind of bluffy, then let him win only 9 times out of 10 (or whatever). This way you exploit him. Now, in practice this translates to calling with 10% of your bluff catchers. With this bet size, I'd say bluff catchers are all non-nut hands. Thus figure out if you are in the top 10% of your range (or use an external randomizer) if you have a hand that can beat a bluff.

All other methods, especially online, are pure soul-reading or witchcraft. It is simply up to you.