4b deep spot

Hey,

I disagree that AK and AA cant bet like this its 4bet pot even its CO vs BTN. On turn its fold Imo you have only 6 outs ofc without diamond on OTR cause he would have a AQdd as well so you beat only bluffs . I dont think that you have some implied odds. OTR ofc I also shove but I am a spazzer:f_cool:

Turn is fold, but that is already said.

I think the decisive factor OTR is what he does with AK. If you think he calls with it (which you wrote), then 9 combos of his pretty slim range are bad for you.

You overplayed your QQ on a board that is not favorable for you.

Turn is quite close to a fold. As played I see no reason to turn our showdown value into a bluff. He might not fold his AK and now you are trying to rep hands that probably are not in your range (AA,KK) since you maybe would try to get it in pre.

Noone is 5betting AA/KK 200BB+ deep.

Fold on the flop, look at the size of the 4bet pre-flop, the king kills your chances imo

Originally posted by Fanko
Noone is 5betting AA/KK 200BB+ deep.

Why not? AA is the best starting hand. It would be better to try to get as much money in pre as possible.
If villain 4bets you with a value hand, he probably has big difficulties in letting his hand go against a 5bet.
Ppl might not do this a lot but I don't think there are any theoretical reasons why we couldn't do this?
When we are so deep basically we could have even 6bet bluff range

Basically when you are so deep you want to flat your entire range since it is more + EV.

As I said eariler, AA is the best hand preflop and the more money you get in the better.

Could you somehow prove to me flatting our whole range is more +EV? Snowie doesn't seem to think so.
I probably know why you think this way but now I want to challenge that thinking and see if there is really some reason to flat AA pre or if it is just something most of the players (at least at micros) are doing.

Snowie is a scam to begin with, listening to it is a crime.

I have to disagree with that. Snowie is a great tool if you know how to use it. It gives you close to optimal lines in many situations but to get most out of it you must understand how things work and why Snowie would play a hand a certain way and how you should apply it in your games.

Of course you can't take some of the lines and use those at NL2 because it would be less profitable but Snowie has some truth in its suggestions. You can practice "theoretically correct" lines with it. You of course don't have to use GTO at the micros but I believe in order to be a good poker player you have to understand poker in theory at some level.

The fact that instead of throwing me some kind of a counter-argument you start mocking Snowie tells me that you probably don't understand poker in theory very well? Otherwise you would be able to tell me why Snowie is wrong. You might be flatting aces for several reasons: 1) someone has told you to do so 2) you are afraid of losing a big pot 3) you might think you get more money postflop if you let villain call wider

I guess many could flat AA because of the last point, but I'm not quite sure it is correct. The board can run bad for us. Villain can hit a stronger hand and we pay him off. So it would have been correct to put as much money in while we still were ahead. In this hand for example, if hero had AA and flatted pre -> whole stack gone. If hero had 5bet pre villain probably would give up JJ and we would often see AA vs KK.

Snowie is basically a break-even bot on the low levels, I do not see how it is a great tool for anything.

Well, then you don't. But for the most good players it probably will give some insight in difficult spots and they can practice with it.
But as I said, you are not supposed to copy the moves and use them as is in microstakes.

If you want to be good, at some point you have to understand the theory. Snowie is usefull then.

It is real cute you comment about people you do not know and give them advice about what they should do.

I try not to be rude or comment any people but I am indeed trying to give advice what others should do. That's why we have this hand discussion board here

You gave a piece of advice too, which I thought was maybe inaccurate and I wanted more reasoning. This is how it works.
To be good poker players we should always be asking Why am I doing this and if we can't answer the question, we do not know what we really should be doing.
Another good quality for a poker player is to be able to accept the fact that sometimes we are wrong. If you can show me that I'm wrong I will happily accept that and will start flatting aces vs 4bets when deep.

When we give advice to others here I believe it is in everyone's best interest to challenge our thinking and make sure the facts are right. That way we get a good discussion and everyone will learn something.

Post that hand in any 100+ NL forum and ask if you should 5bet it.

Originally posted by Fanko
Basically when you are so deep you want to flat your entire range since it is more + EV.

wanna argument a little why not having a 5b range 200 bb deep is +EV? also + ev vs whom? i guess it would depend quite a bit on population