SNG 6 MAX $1 KO - 4 way all in!

To make this spot tractable for HoldemResources (ICM calculators can't handle scenarios where 4-way all-ins are probable), let's assume that the UTG fish folded instead of limping (presumably, he limps with a weak range). UTG's fold would make Hero's (= SB's) shoving range narrower because there'd then be one less shortstack bounty for the taking. Let's see what Hero's range would be in this modified scenario.

It turns out to be ~85% (85.5%, 22+ Jx+ T2s+ T4o+ 92s+ 95o+ 82s+ 85o+ 72s+ 74o+ 62s+ 64o+ 52s+ 53o+ 42s+ 32s), i.e. all pairs, all suited hands and all non-garbage offsuit ones.

Due to UTG's supposedly weak limp, Hero's shoving range in the actual hand is perhaps any two cards, or 85% at least. There are 2-3 bounties for the taking (2 of the short stacks and 1 of the BB if he overcalls), whereas the majority of Hero's stack is only exposed to BB, and Hero can actually win the side pot vs BB even if he loses the main pot.

Actually, BB's overcalling range is narrower than 100% because of ICM considerations and the fact that BB is not the chip leader and will be eliminated if he doesn't win the side pot vs Hero, so quite often, Hero will end up in a 3-way all-in vs the short stacks, eligible for the bounties of them both.

Whenever someone with a very short stack shoves in a super-KO, it's typical for the chip leader to have a 80-100% shoving range.

great analysis!

As usual, Tony is quite correct.

The UTG limper should actually be open-shoving very wide here ~75+%. Assuming he shoved instead, and button called, you'd still be correct to push with ATC, and BB should only call with a very tight range of ~3% (TT+,AKs). The BB is very risk-adverse here because if you are lucky enough to eliminate both small stacks, he is 1 chip away from 2nd stack and in a good position to make it ITM.

Assuming UTG limp is a fold instead, and button shoved, you should still be pushing ATC and BB should only call with a slightly wider range of ~12% (66+,A7s+,ATo+,KTs+,KQo). The BB is willing to accept a bit more risk here to capture the bounty because his position in the tourney (i.e. to make it ITM) is not as firm as in the previous scenario.

Ramble, aren't you confusing 6-man and 9-man KOs? Unlike 9-mans, 6-mans ($0.46 + 0.46 + 0.08) have relatively large bounties - half the buy-in - and the regular prize pool is 3 BIs, split evenly between the top 2 finishers.

If BB overcalls and scoops the 4-way pot, then he'll have ~2K chips out of the 3K in play, will almost secure a top-2 finish (a $1.38 prize), plus be a 2-to-1 favourite to win the 2 bounties ($0.92 total) in the HU phase, plus be a favourite to win a $0.46 bounty for eliminating someone in 3rd (most likely the crippled SB), so his overall $ equity will be over $2.2, plus he'll get $0.92 for knocking out players in 4th and 5th, for total expected earnings of ~$3.1 (that's just out of my sleepy head, I may be off by 10-20 cents in either direction).

If BB overcalls and only wins the side pot vs SB, he won't get the shorties' bounties immediately but will still be the main contestant for them.

Whereas if BB folds, his expected shares of both the regular prize pool and the remaining bounty pool (3-5 bounties depending on how many players SB knocks out in this hand) will be close to 1/3, as he'll have 1 of the 3 quite similar big stacks, so his tourney equity will be ~$1.5 on average.

So BB can overcall pretty much whenever his hand is ahead of SB's very wide range. My HRC simulation (for the case when UTG folds) advised a 50.8% overcalling range to BB (22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q5o+ J5s+ J8o+ T7s+ T8o+ 97s+), and it must be even wider when UTG enters the pot.

That said, I doubt that most human regs overcall with a range close to 50% in the BB in this spot. Some are too tight, some (like me before doing this analysis) too loose.

Originally posted by Ramble
The UTG limper should actually be open-shoving very wide here ~75+%.

His limp was incidentally a correct move that's typical of super-KOs - what I call an 'info limp'*: before committing his entire stack, he had to see whether BTN (AxuBlack) with 44 chips would shove in the same hand. UTG (GABISH78) can limp/fold a wide range if AxuBlack folds now, and keep limping until AxuBlack finally puts the stack in. GABISH78's stack is so small that his main hope in the tourney is to get AxuBlack's bounty.

Besides, unlike in usual SNGs, if GABISH78 is dealt a premium hand, he's almost guaranteed to get action from someone and often even more than 1 opponent, so he has an incentive to wait for a fat value hand for an orbit or so.

Thus I think he should limp/fold (if AxuBlack folds behind his limp) with mediocre hands that however do well in multiway all-ins (like suited (semi-)connectors) and limp/call with strong hands for balance. If AxuBlack does shove, then of course GABISH78 will overcall anyone else's shove(s) with the entire limping range.

* Generally, I 'limp for info' in super/total KOs when there's a supershort stack behind me, to stay in the hand and see if that shortie puts the stack in. By the time when it's my turn to act again, I usually have the info about who's committed their stacks in the current hand**. IME, shorties tend to cling to their tourney lives even when they have 2-3 bb left.

** Smart shorties counter this strategy by overlimping instead of shoving, to see the flop themselves and so that their opponents see the flop OOP and be still in the dark as to whether the shorties are going to get it in.

Originally posted by tonypmm
Ramble, aren't you confusing 6-man and 9-man KOs? Unlike 9-mans, 6-mans ($0.46 + 0.46 + 0.08) have relatively large bounties - half the buy-in - and the regular prize pool is 3 BIs, split evenly between the top 2 finishers.

I was indeed thinking like a 9-man KO tourney. That's where my experience lies and I hadn't considered just how big a difference the bounty and ITM pay-out structure was from a 9-man... this is very interesting. I need to wrap my head around it a bit more as it seems so contrary to what my gut is telling me... maybe that is just the left-over pizza from earlier though...

Your limp/fold strategy is quite interesting as well, but I can see the logic in your thinking given the bounties/payouts.

Thanks for the discussion!

I think this is a standard push, but it’s weird the UTG+1 player is still limping with 4bb, but further not too much you can do wrong here with the change to win at least 1 bounty.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Pra mim seria Call facil

Originally posted by Satanfisher
For me it would be easy call

FYP. TY to Google Translate.

Try to keep your answers in English next time if you are posting on the English forum. The everyone will understand you.

I expect you mean you would just call in the SB when the UTG player is limping and the BTN is all-inn for less than a big blind. Problem with this is that you are playing this hand multi way and then you need to hit top pair or better to win the hand in the end. If you shove like hero is doing you have maximum fold equity and you are in front against both ranges. It’s too bad this time the BB has a good hand this time.

Cheers,
SDK1987