Please take all my chips Sir - how NOT to play OTR

If you happen to 4bet JJ UTG vs BB (or pretty much anywhere at NL2 in fact given the lack of preflop agression escalation of the field) it's time to end up your session as you must be on tilt.

I really didn't understand why we can't 4bet JJ from UTG vs BB min 3bet floxy. I may be missing something, as it is already late ♦
The check OTT lets you see a free card OTR, which could be good if he checks there. A spade or an ace are good bluffing cards if he checks. Besides you control the pot. I like it.
A bet could have some merit if he is too passive. But this is a 4bet pot, so you could be already behind. Good check imo.
River.. well I had one of those today too where I had the nuts OTT (straight) and river comes the 3rd heart and he donk shoves and I called just because I'm dumb. This spots on NL2 usually work like this: you either know he is an absolute maniac and does this with K6'o (as I've seen) or you're beaten 95% of the times.

Because a min3bet is still a 3bet and UTG vs BB I wouldn't even 4bet QQ most of the time. JJ is just so not the 4betting hand in SH. We aren't in MTT or HU come on.

I disagree with you floxybaby. JJ could be a 4betting hand. It depends what kind of player 3bet us and the dynamics.
But in this case i prefere to just call the min 3bet if vilian is unknown to us. Bet OTF seems ok. Check back OTT is fine too. OTR i think we could consider a fold vs unknown

No, no and no. You have to realize I'm already the lag type of guy with JJ lol. Most people don't even 3bet it these days ! I keep on 3betting it most of the time but a 4bet come on what are you even trying to accomplish with it ? 4bet must be much more polarized than that. And in that case I don't even want to imagine your poor 3bet calling range rofl. On baby flops you must fold range in 3bet pots...

what are you even trying to accomplish with it ?

Value. Against weak players who tend to overplay their hands too much. Or players that 3bet too much. I mean you have to have some kind of read to make such a move.

Yeah value TT- rofl that how the game works it's well known. What if I told you by calling you keep his range wider and allow him to make many more mistakes postflop ?
Or more simply put,, when you call pre TT still gives you his stack on most runouts so the "value" of your spewy move is mostly in your head. Your head, you know right, the only place where people 3bet too much BB vs UTG ?
There are even people not 3betting QQ and AK in that spot these days...
And even when people 3bet a lot it's not mandatory to 4bet JJ to "punish" them. Flatting remains exploitative enough.

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
Yeah value TT- rofl that how the game works it's well known. What if I told you by calling you keep his range wider and allow him to make many more mistakes postflop ?

You could be right and wrong all at the same time. Every move has negative and positive side. You've just said the positive side. But there is negative too.By calling you might keep his range wide but you also give a cheap possibility for weaker hands to improve thus suck you out.

Yeah poker should be all about coin flips. Allowing someone holding AQ to see a flop without engaging his whole stack when we have JJ is unforgivable.
I have to say you could maybe make a good MTT or spin player. I'd not bet as much on an SH career though.

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
Yeah poker should be all about coin flips. Allowing someone holding AQ to see a flop without engaging his whole stack when we have JJ is unforgivable.
I have to say you could maybe make a good MTT or spin player. I'd not bet as much on an SH career though.

Wrong. Alowing a weak hands to see cheap cards is unforgivable. You lose value. I didnt say that calling is a mistake if you do it for the sake of balance.

It's 5 handed so the 4bet is meh! In most cases though your just value owning yourself . I think it can also be site dependent as ranges can change within different player pools. But I agree with FloxyBaby 100% here though that in general your just killing your self 4betting JJ utg vs bb even 5 handed. This is a spot villains can and will 3bet fold AK TT JJ QQ so when you 4bet and they jam your 20/80 vs KK+.

Originally posted by Ac3onth3riv3r

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
Yeah poker should be all about coin flips. Allowing someone holding AQ to see a flop without engaging his whole stack when we have JJ is unforgivable.
I have to say you could maybe make a good MTT or spin player. I'd not bet as much on an SH career though.

Wrong. Alowing a weak hands to see cheap cards is unforgivable. You lose value. I didnt say that calling is a mistake if you do it for the sake of balance.

Going into pots with a range advantage is never a mistake it's what we want to do. Yes in every hand we can get outdrawn but hopefully we navigate postflop well enough to maximize pofits and minimize losses.

What's more plus ev ? 4betting JJ and getting it in vs QQ+ AK or flatting and playing vs an entire range ? I'm far more inclined to play AK for fold equity when it comes to 4bet and 5bet's preflop.

About the hand. Without info call vs 3bet is better for me. As played, I will bet small two times. I will not fold with over pair. His range is capped. Most likely...
The small 3bet is actually worse for 4bet. Your profit from the fold equity is smaller. You need more equity vs shove 5bet. KK+ or QQ+, AKs are good enough from UtG. For 4bet IP. Even vs small 3bet. As I said, without info...
You can play with wider range for 4bet vs small 3bets, but you must have a wider range for 4bet-fold. IMO, it is bad for NL2. Keep it simple.

Hey guys,

Please keep your discussion to the hand in question.

Regards

Laz

I don't like the 4bet and as played I think the cbet sizing is too large.