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Flushdraw + toppair 3bet pot multiway

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TurokRider
Joined: 21.10.2011

PokerStars Zoom Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05)
Table 'Donati' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: player1 ($6.11 in chips)
Seat 2: player2 ($5 in chips)
Seat 3: player3 ($6.07 in chips)
Seat 4: player4 ($7.05 in chips)
Seat 5: player5 ($2.43 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO ($9.33 in chips)
player2: posts small blind $0.02
player3: posts big blind $0.05
HOLE CARDS
Dealt to HERO [Js Ts]
player4: raises $0.10 to $0.15
player5: calls $0.15
HERO: calls $0.15
player1: folds
player2: folds
player3: raises $0.62 to $0.77
player4: calls $0.62
player5: folds
HERO: calls $0.62
FLOP [9s 2s Th]
player3: checks
player4: bets $1.20

Spoiler

HERO: raises $7.36 to $8.56 and is all-in
player3: folds
player4: calls $5.08 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($2.28) returned to HERO
TURN [9s 2s Th] [7d]
RIVER [9s 2s Th 7d] [8d]
SHOW DOWN
player4: shows [Qs Qc] (a pair of Queens)
HERO: shows [Js Ts] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
HERO collected $14.42 from pot
SUMMARY
Total pot $15.04 | Rake $0.62
Board [9s 2s Th 7d 8d]
Seat 3: player3 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: player4 showed [Qs Qc] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 6: HERO showed [Js Ts] and won ($14.42) with a straight, Seven to Jack

Preflop: First call is quite normal imo. Calling the 3bet is a must because of potodds (right?)
Flop : check of the 3better looks weak. The bet of player4 looks strong, being multiway, on this board.

What should hero do?

Spoiler

Calling seems too weak to me, but raise to smtg like $3 seems pointless as I'm potcommitted anyway, and I don't mind a fold right here. Thats my reasoning for shoving. Turned out I had 44% so I think my shove was correct.


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15 replies
AnDoRPoKe
Joined: 05.08.2009

Would fold PF I think, BB 3bet against 2 players one of them being UTG, so I think his range is pretty strong here.
Even with the good pot odds, against a player who raise/call as UTG and the other one 3betting UTG, don't think it's enough.


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TurokRider
Joined: 21.10.2011

Tnx for the comments. Appreciate it !


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

So, UTG opens and MP calls? Imo totally standard call pre with JTs. After there is a squeeze and UTG calls too, I think it is fine to call aswell.

OTF you have a mid strenght flush draw, top pair (just tens) and a backdoor straight draw. It is decent but not super good. I think you should not fold, but should you ship it? You are deep, and think about UTG's range here. He can have JJ, QQ and higher flushdraws. Other hands he is just pretty much going to fold. So I don't like the raise.


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Gerv
Joined: 07.05.2008

Assuming zoom players play more ABC, shipping it in here is relatively bad because you get it in way-behind mostly while being >=100bb

Call Flop & Evaluate is what I would do


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zetozinho
Joined: 18.06.2017

Fold pre. Dont find this calls against UTG open and MP call. Besides, BB squeezes a UTG raise and a MP call.
You should fold prior. When the squeeze comes it should be an obvious fold.
Ship OTF is worse than fold, trust me. It is high variance, you are probably dominated.


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TurokRider
Joined: 21.10.2011

I'm a bit puzzled by the "call flop" suggested by La55i and Gerv. What cards OTT or OTR will every be really good for us to continue and get the money in.
If a spade hits and he shoved, I will be very hesident to call. Same when a J drops.
Even if a second T drops, I'm not too happy bc 99 and 22 get there.

Fold preflop, I get that. Fold OTF, I understand, but calling? nope.

I totally agree that I will be behind almost always when he calls, but not much. Assuming he has a toprange of 99+, AQs+, 78s when he calls, I have 46%.
On the flop I have the most fold-equity and I would be happy to take the pot right there. I do think he will lay down a reasonable portion of his hands so that will deffo make up for the few % I'm behind.
Yes, it's a high variance move, but besides folding pre, the least costly in the longrun imo.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

You can pair your T or J. That would hit some straight draws villain could have but then your hand would also beat QQ+ that villain would likely 2 or 3 barrel. You could hit and OESD so you could call turn again with your combo draw. You could hit a flush and you could still get some streets from his overpairs. It is true that you could be in a shitty spot if villain ships it while being deep, but hitting a flush doesn't mean villain would always go aggro.

With your hand you have so much equity that I think folding already OTF is out of question.

But now that I played around with some calculators and equilab, I'm not so sure anymore that shoving would be bad... It actually looks that if we give villain even QQ+,TT,99 and he calls every single time, we should still be making profit. If he folds 0%, we need about 43% equity.

Now that we figured out that shoving actually is +EV, we should figure out whether it is also the maxEV line. I'm too lazy to use a solver so I put this scenario in to Snowie and it would actually mix in some raises and some checks. According to Snowie the EV between the 2 options is the same. Interestingly it would choose a smaller raise size. Only situation where it would just call is if our raise size would be 2pot or bigger, then it thinks calling has a higher EV 15.04 while raising would have just 14.67.

As a conclusion, I don't care whether you raise or call, but just don't fold :)
And about the preflop call, imo totally standard. Snowie would fold, but I think it plays very nitty in this spot and I'm not sure how good that advice is in the micros. More callers with our speculative hand wouldn't be terrible as it benefits from larger stack to pot ratio. And I think the population at the micros is not very squeeze happy, especially when there is a raise and 2 callers.


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Tomaloc
Joined: 17.01.2011

hand is +EV, but mainly because you can't really go wrong when you flop so much equity.
it must be said that obviously we shouldn't be happy about having less than 50% against villain's calling range, so we are hoping for some fold equity on the flop. however, villain is hardly going to fold better hands, and if he's betting super wide we're already quite way ahead anyway. so it doesn't seem like an amazing bluffing spot.

calling flop easily seems like the best option, specially if we are going to be results oriented and see villain calling the jam with QsQ while deeper (blocks a ton of your potential bluffing range).
if we never fold out better and don't get called by worse, there is clearly not much point in raising. equity denial is not so significant when some of villain's overcard outs are tainted as well.

pair+draw just plays really well in position in general, also if we think about our overall range construction it's an obvious candidate hand to go into our calling range.
conclusion: i dislike raising because the EV and range construction implications of calling look much better (it's hard for humans to balance our ranges like snowie does obv). easy call otf.


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TurokRider
Joined: 21.10.2011

Thanks for all the advice.
I really don't like calling, but that's prolly why I'm not a big winning player :f_biggrin:


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MyFloXyBabY
Joined: 15.02.2010

To those having a hard time calling JTs I wonder what your calling range looks like if you have any ?


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zetozinho
Joined: 18.06.2017

Floxy, against UTG and MP call my calling range is... does not exist. After a BB squeeze I pay not to call.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Yea I checked that spot with Snowie and it would also have almost non-existent calling range there.

That is something I don't really get. I do have a calling range in this spot and it is not even that tight. We are IP vs both players and at the micros I don't think people are squeeze happy especially if there are more than just 1 call. This is also something I see other good players and coaches do at least at the micro/small stakes.


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MyFloXyBabY
Joined: 15.02.2010

Yeah people at micros will be so loose and so bad postflop it should still be doable but it's also true that it's not the +EV spot of the year so those who don't wanna bother can be easily understood too I suppose.


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zetozinho
Joined: 18.06.2017

I prefer to cold 4bet this IP than call. But I 4bet 8% at NL2 lol.


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