All-in or Fold @ GGNetwork

Hi mpranjic,
Really good idea.

I've only ever played it under two circumstances:
 I needed the "fish points" AoF is a really good way to get them fast
 I need to completed a task for the weekly mission.

I only play Omaha AoF since in that format you see the flop before deciding.

In the Hold'em variant, I think that just going by your own hand strength vs 1, 2 or 3 random hands will give you a marginal win over the long term.
However, as you point out, a lot of people play the game in short bursts.

Cheers,
VS

Hey VorpalF2F, thanks for your reply

I have also started to play it to complete a Fish buffet level, but I find it pretty amusing to play when I am on a job break, not to mention profitable if you run on some pretty loose players on the table.

Considering Omaha AOF, it is certainly better , but I am too tight when I play Omaha so AOF format is too wild for me

Originally posted by mpranjic
Considering Omaha AOF, it is certainly better , but I am too tight when I play Omaha so AOF format is too wild for me
I'm too tight as well -- I shove nothing worse than top 2 pair, and call with nothing worse than three of a kind (not necessarily top)

4 sessions is all I've played since I started keeping records, and I'm down 50 bucks.
Hold'em I've done slightly better -- or rather not quite as bad.

Cheers,
VS

I think that kind of game would quite easily be solved for Holdem by someone whom has the softwares.

Could someone clarify here how the game works?

Hey Kyyberi,

The game is 4handed, and depending on the stakes, you have about 4-8bb.
Let's take 1$/2$ for example where buy-in to the table is 8$. You decide whether you will push or fold, and if you perhaps fold the big blind, it will automatically top-up to 8$ again. You can also remove chips in case you won and you don't want to risk bigger amount of money on one hand (if your stack is effective stack of course).

It should be noted that the Omaha version reveals the flop before the players make their decisions, while the Hold'em version is played entirely preflop.

The low stack to blinds ratio deserves special attention, making successful blind steals alone quite profitable. This should definitely be taken into account when anyone tries to develop a strategy for this format. Tightening up and waiting for premium hands just won't do, and coming up with a good plan for blinds defense is a necessity.

As mpranjic pointed out, ratholing is allowed in this game, possibly even encouraged. There is an easily available option to move any excess chips back to your balance at any time, so you won't have to worry about risky deep stack clashes if you choose so.

I have only played the Omaha version so far, and while there does seem to be a lot of potential for a decent edge, I personally found these games to be mostly rake traps. I believe there is some mandatory "big hand jackpot" which also takes a lot of chips per hand, and I don't know the exact math, but the rake (including jackpot payments) really is quite considerable, and tough to overcome in my experience.

So I'd urge caution to any newcomers rushing in. The games may be beatable, but I believe they can look a lot more profitable at first glance than they actually are. If anyone can make a more in-depth analysis of them, I'd be interested as well.

seems like the most obvious rake trap i have ever seen. not sure how it looks profitable at all... but maybe you can win by playing perfectly.

All you need is play smart, confident, and oppoment will trap himself.

Getting in trouble as not keeping head clean!

I went to GGPoker's website to look at the rake structure for AoF

This is what I found. I added the columns for Buy-In and for % which is the Rake + The JP divided by the BI
This is an over-simplification, but serves the purpose.

        Blinds     Type      BI   Rake  JP Fee      %  JP Pay 
 $0.10 / $0.25  Hold’em      $2  $0.01   $0.01  1.00%   0.03% 
 $0.25 / $0.50    Omaha      $2  $0.02   $0.03  2.50%   0.08% 
    $0.50 / $1  Hold’em      $8  $0.05   $0.05  1.25%   0.12% 
       $1 / $2    Omaha      $8  $0.10   $0.10  2.50%   0.30% 
       $2 / $4  Hold’em     $32  $0.20   $0.20  1.25%   0.50% 
       $4 / $8    Omaha     $32  $0.40   $0.40  2.50%   0.80% 
      $5 / $10  Hold’em     $80  $0.50   $0.50  1.25%      1% 
    $50 / $100  Hold’em  $1,000     $5      $5  1.00%     10% 
   $100 / $200    Omaha  $1,000    $10     $10  2.00%     10% 

Best of luck,
VS

Is this a fixed rake per hand, and is it even paid by players who choose to fold? I don't really remember how it works, and I couldn't find anything to confirm it in the link.

But as you can see, losing an entire big blind to rake and fees every 10 hands is pretty insane (especially if it is paid by all players who get dealt a hand). In such a rapid fire game, this is going to rack up in no time.

In small stakes PLO you pay 1bb in rake for every 6 hands.

1% rake sounds beatable to me?

I just watched a couple of hands.
You don't pay rake if you fold.
You don't pay rake if you shove and everyone else folds.

With 4bb stack wouldnt it make sense to shove anything when not in blinds?

In Hold'em AoF everyone pays the rake up in front regardless of the action in hand, but I still didn't try Omaha.

About shoving a 4bb - yeah, my opinion is is usually makes sense in theory, but this is a 4handed short stack game and most important - it's cash, and you don't stay on 3bb and "fight to get back in the game" if you f.e. fold the bb because it automatically tops-up.
I imagine it more as a big stack play but "limit" format since your whole bankroll actually plays. Every beginner in AoF should be aware of that.

I played about 300 hands yesterday and managed to beat it by 6 buy-ins playing by common sense and paying attention on the villains push %, how often he pushes from what position and did he immediatelly pressed All-in button, which he usually does if he holds a pocket pair or ATs+..

Originally posted by mpranjic
In Hold'em AoF everyone pays the rake up in front regardless of the action in hand, but I still didn't try Omaha.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
I just watched a couple of hands.
You don't pay rake if you fold.
You don't pay rake if you shove and everyone else folds.

I doubt they handle it differently in Omaha compared to Hold'em, so this conflicting info. Is one of you maybe confusing jackpot fees for rake, or vice versa? Maybe one of them is paid upfront, and the other only if you play the hand.

Just tried 0.10$/0.25$ Hold'em and it immediatelly takes 0.02$ from the bankroll, which is both rake and JP fee.

Originally posted by Harrier88
I doubt they handle it differently in Omaha compared to Hold'em, so this conflicting info. Is one of you maybe confusing jackpot fees for rake, or vice versa? Maybe one of them is paid upfront, and the other only if you play the hand.

Very odd.
I watched Hold'em at the lowest stakes.
As I watched, the stacks of those who folded did not diminish at all.
The pot was displayed as the total of all amounts paid into it.
At the moment it was paid out, the pot was diminished by the amount of rake -- but only the amount that would apply to the number of participants.
I will try again to see if I notice anything different, and post a screenshot.

Cheers,
VS

The stacks did not, but the bankroll reduces every hand when you play. Rake and JP fees work "behind the scene" here.