AKo in a classic 3bet pot

I think your flop bet was way too small, you giving him a price to continue on the flop with virtually anything that has any piece of the board,you have AK, 2 overs,I think you're betting for fold equity here which should be larger, A of diamonds helps making the large bet justified.On the turn you bet very small again and Its hard for me to give villain a proper range because 1 he can call your bet size with a wide range and 2. I think he might just read your hand as weak and come over the top with a hand he wouldn't typically do so with but if you had bet like you meant it he may not have played this way. Could also just check fold AK when missed , thats just my 2 cents.

I'm not sure i like the cbet all that much your blocking a lot of the flush draws and you probably dont have to much fold equity on that flop.Villain has a lot of TJs KQs AQ 99.Even hands you would hope to fold like KJs your blocking.AS played the turn looks like an easy fold.

this is a spot that i don't know how to play myself. check/fold flop does not seem too insane since btn's calling range should hit this flop pretty well, turn also seems good for his range.
if we're going to barrel i think we should go for a jam on most rivers, he's probably folding quite little on the turn but he'll have a bunch of pair+draw hands like Tx that we can make him fold with a jam later. you should disregard all this and just mess with the solver, honestly...

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
I'm not sure i like the cbet all that much your blocking a lot of the flush draws and you probably dont have to much fold equity on that flop.Villain has a lot of TJs KQs AQ 99.Even hands you would hope to fold like KJs your blocking.AS played the turn looks like an easy fold.

I kindly disagree with you,I see hands that villain could fold in his range on the flop here.In a 3-bet pot I speculate villain could fold 88, A9,J9,T9,98, KTs,AJo, There is also still 6 combos of KJ with no diamond of which 2 are suited.We also have to look at Hero's range which is uncapped, He was the pre-flop aggressor so he can very well hold JJ+,AK,AQ when we take that into account villains marginal paired hands don't seem so hot to continue with but because he bet so small on the flop villain doesn't have a hard time calling with all the weaker parts of his range hoping to improve, On the turn though TT is still in his range and completes KJ and T8, and the board is even more co-ordinated along with all the draws and hero having no pair and no nut flush-draw its a fold.

With the range that you listed there are 9 combos of AQ left, only 2 combos of KQ suited, 4 combos of JTs, and 3 combos of 99, this is only a small chunk of his overall range isnt it ? Villain holds other speculative hands in his range with more total combos of which I think villain is capable of folding to on the flop versus a solid c-bet?

Total range I give villains pre-flop call:

JJ-TT, 88, QhQs, QhQc, QsQc, 9h9s, 9h9c, 9s9c, JTs, AsKs, AcKc, AhQh, AsQs, AcQc, KsQs, KcQc, AhJh, AsJs, AcJc, KdJd, KsJs, KcJc, QhJh, QsJs, QcJc, AhTh, AsTs, AcTc, KdTd, KsTs, KcTc, QhTh, QsTs, QcTc, Ah9h, As9s, Ac9c, Ks9s, Kc9c, Qh9h, Qs9s, Qc9c, Jh9h, Js9s, Jc9c, Th9h, Ts9s, Tc9c, AhKd, AhKs, AhKc, AsKd, AsKc, AcKd, AcKs, AhQs, AhQc, AsQh, AsQc, AcQh, AcQs, AhJd, AhJs, AhJc, AsJd, AsJh, AsJc, AcJd, AcJh, AcJs, KdQh, KdQs, KdQc, KsQh, KsQc, KcQh, KcQs, KdJh, KdJs, KdJc, KsJd, KsJh, KsJc, KcJd, KcJh, KcJs

Out of all those 105 hands, The hands I think he is not folding to a flop bet of around 2/3 pot are:

AQ #9 combos
KQs#2combos
KQo#7combos
QQ#3combos
JJ#6combos
TT#6combos
99#3 combos
QJs#3combos
QTs#3combos
Q9s#3combos

then we have our suited diamond hands that hes not folding to a c-bet

KJdd,KTdd,JTdd, 3 combos

I don't think hes folding about 56-combos( added up the above combos) for sure.leaving 49 combos that are left.

then we have what I think can be folded or called with depending on the player type,

88 can be folded 6 combos

A9s and K9s are decent hands but against hero's range they seem speculative maybe fold the k9 combos #3combos and call once with the A9 #3combos

J9s probably calls a street, #3 combos

T9s I think can be folded to a 3/4 pot bet versus heros range. #3combos

4#combos of KJ can fold, #3combos have kd can call

AK I would fold any that dont contain Kd, so fold #6combos and keep #3combos

AJ with J of diamonds maybe calls once #3 combos, other #9 combos can fold.

ATs probrably folds #3 combos

KTs with no dd, can fold #2 combos

JTs with no diamonds can call I guess #3combos

I think villain can comfortably fold 36 combinations of hands out of 105,

36/105= 34% of villains pre-flop calling range can arguably fold to a solid flop bet on this board, I think even hands like A9, and AJ are player dependant because its a 3-bet pot and when we use relative hand strength they arn't the greatest

Originally posted by killacasey

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
I'm not sure i like the cbet all that much your blocking a lot of the flush draws and you probably dont have to much fold equity on that flop.Villain has a lot of TJs KQs AQ 99.Even hands you would hope to fold like KJs your blocking.AS played the turn looks like an easy fold.

I kindly disagree with you,I see hands that villain could fold in his range on the flop here.In a 3-bet pot I speculate villain could fold 88, A9,J9,T9,98, KTs,AJo, There is also still 6 combos of KJ with no diamond of which 2 are suited.We also have to look at Hero's range which is uncapped, He was the pre-flop aggressor so he can very well hold JJ+,AK,AQ when we take that into account villains marginal paired hands don't seem so hot to continue with but because he bet so small on the flop villain doesn't have a hard time calling with all the weaker parts of his range hoping to improve, On the turn though TT is still in his range and completes KJ and T8, and the board is even more co-ordinated along with all the draws and hero having no pair and no nut flush-draw its a fold.

With the range that you listed there are 9 combos of AQ left, only 2 combos of KQ suited, 4 combos of JTs, and 3 combos of 99, this is only a small chunk of his overall range isnt it ? Villain holds other speculative hands in his range with more total combos of which I think villain is capable of folding to on the flop versus a solid c-bet?

Total range I give villains pre-flop call:

JJ-TT, 88, QhQs, QhQc, QsQc, 9h9s, 9h9c, 9s9c, JTs, AsKs, AcKc, AhQh, AsQs, AcQc, KsQs, KcQc, AhJh, AsJs, AcJc, KdJd, KsJs, KcJc, QhJh, QsJs, QcJc, AhTh, AsTs, AcTc, KdTd, KsTs, KcTc, QhTh, QsTs, QcTc, Ah9h, As9s, Ac9c, Ks9s, Kc9c, Qh9h, Qs9s, Qc9c, Jh9h, Js9s, Jc9c, Th9h, Ts9s, Tc9c, AhKd, AhKs, AhKc, AsKd, AsKc, AcKd, AcKs, AhQs, AhQc, AsQh, AsQc, AcQh, AcQs, AhJd, AhJs, AhJc, AsJd, AsJh, AsJc, AcJd, AcJh, AcJs, KdQh, KdQs, KdQc, KsQh, KsQc, KcQh, KcQs, KdJh, KdJs, KdJc, KsJd, KsJh, KsJc, KcJd, KcJh, KcJs

Out of all those 105 hands, The hands I think he is not folding to a flop bet of around 2/3 pot are:

AQ #9 combos
KQs#2combos
KQo#7combos
QQ#3combos
JJ#6combos
TT#6combos
99#3 combos
QJs#3combos
QTs#3combos
Q9s#3combos

then we have our suited diamond hands that hes not folding to a c-bet

KJdd,KTdd,JTdd, 3 combos

I don't think hes folding about 56-combos( added up the above combos) for sure.leaving 49 combos that are left.

then we have what I think can be folded or called with depending on the player type,

88 can be folded 6 combos

A9s and K9s are decent hands but against hero's range they seem speculative maybe fold the k9 combos #3combos and call once with the A9 #3combos

J9s probably calls a street, #3 combos

T9s I think can be folded to a 3/4 pot bet versus heros range. #3combos

4#combos of KJ can fold, #3combos have kd can call

AK I would fold any that dont contain Kd, so fold #6combos and keep #3combos

AJ with J of diamonds maybe calls once #3 combos, other #9 combos can fold.

ATs probrably folds #3 combos

KTs with no dd, can fold #2 combos

JTs with no diamonds can call I guess #3combos

I think villain can comfortably fold 36 combinations of hands out of 105,

36/105= 34% of villains pre-flop calling range can arguably fold to a solid flop bet on this board, I think even hands like A9, and AJ are player dependant because its a 3-bet pot and when we use relative hand strength they arn't the greatest

Ye villains range is wider than the hands i gave i wasn't listing a range just some combos that are in villains range.And i'm not sure about the flop i'm not going to disagree with any of the options i think cbet,check fold and check call might all be viable options.Im not currently using a solver so i have no idea about the gto play here.Well thought out post though with some good points.

I made an error this the preflop range I give him

QQ-88, AhAs, AhAc, AsAc, KdKs, KdKc, KsKc, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, AsKs, AcKc, AhQh, AsQs, AcQc, KdQd, KsQs, KcQc, AhJh, AsJs, AcJc, KdJd, KsJs, KcJc, AhTh, AsTs, AcTc, KdTd, KsTs, KcTc, Ah9h, As9s, Ac9c, Kd9d, Ks9s, Kc9c, QJo, AhKd, AhKs, AhKc, AsKd, AsKc, AcKd, AcKs, AhQd, AhQs, AhQc, AsQd, AsQh, AsQc, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AhJd, AhJs, AhJc, AsJd, AsJh, AsJc, AcJd, AcJh, AcJs, KdQh, KdQs, KdQc, KsQd, KsQh, KsQc, KcQd, KcQh, KcQs, KdJh, KdJs, KdJc, KsJd, KsJh, KsJc, KcJd, KcJh, KcJs

containing 141 hands,

of those hands after the flop,when we discount the community cards we give villain a range of :

JJ-TT, 88, QhQs, QhQc, QsQc, 9h9s, 9h9c, 9s9c, JTs, AsKs, AcKc, AhQh, AsQs, AcQc, KsQs, KcQc, AhJh, AsJs, AcJc, KdJd, KsJs, KcJc, QhJh, QsJs, QcJc, AhTh, AsTs, AcTc, KdTd, KsTs, KcTc, QhTh, QsTs, QcTc, Ah9h, As9s, Ac9c, Ks9s, Kc9c, Qh9h, Qs9s, Qc9c, Jh9h, Js9s, Jc9c, Th9h, Ts9s, Tc9c, AhKd, AhKs, AhKc, AsKd, AsKc, AcKd, AcKs, AhQs, AhQc, AsQh, AsQc, AcQh, AcQs, AhJd, AhJs, AhJc, AsJd, AsJh, AsJc, AcJd, AcJh, AcJs, KdQh, KdQs, KdQc, KsQh, KsQc, KcQh, KcQs, KdJh, KdJs, KdJc, KsJd, KsJh, KsJc, KcJd, KcJh, KcJs

which is a total of 105 hands.

I don't know much about solvers but I've heard they can do more harm than good to micro players who are facing less than great players at the tables, isn't it better to play based off of villains tendencies?

Originally posted by Tomaloc
this is a spot that i don't know how to play myself. check/fold flop does not seem too insane since btn's calling range should hit this flop pretty well, turn also seems good for his range.
if we're going to barrel i think we should go for a jam on most rivers, he's probably folding quite little on the turn but he'll have a bunch of pair+draw hands like Tx that we can make him fold with a jam later. you should disregard all this and just mess with the solver, honestly...

X/fold flop.. isn't that too weak?
What do you think about solvers for these limits Tom? Do you use any?
Thanks!

i feel that we have many better bluffs (as well as defending hands), so we don't have to go with this. it's unclear how clean any of our outs are against villain's calling range (especially K)...
what i do with solvers is to try to figure out some baseline strategy that we can then deviate from. i don't actually use them too often, though... but this would be a good spot, because it seems important to check the accuracy of these assumptions.

Originally posted by killacasey
I don't know much about solvers but I've heard they can do more harm than good to micro players who are facing less than great players at the tables, isn't it better to play based off of villains tendencies?

Absolutely but you want to have a default game with 3bets and 4bets preflop until you know those tendencies.Postflop you can take some default lines on cbetting and barreling and although it might not be GTO perfect it wont be a million miles away.The thing i worry the least about is balancing river bluffs in the micros.

Originally posted by RedsYNWA

Originally posted by killacasey
I don't know much about solvers but I've heard they can do more harm than good to micro players who are facing less than great players at the tables, isn't it better to play based off of villains tendencies?

Absolutely but you want to have a default game with 3bets and 4bets preflop until you know those tendencies.Postflop you can take some default lines on cbetting and barreling and although it might not be GTO perfect it wont be a million miles away.The thing i worry the least about is balancing river bluffs in the micros.

when you start out learning poker, it doesn't seem right to use a solver to come up with default lines this removes all the thinking for you. Isn't it better to come up with spots on your own to 3 and 4-bet so you understand why your doing it and not just doing it because a program says to? I don't see how you will learn how to know when to do things optimally if your following what a computer tells you to do...again I am not very knowledgeable about GTO or solvers but from the idea I've gotten from them they seem to cut out the player thinking.

Originally posted by killacasey

Originally posted by RedsYNWA

Originally posted by killacasey
I don't know much about solvers but I've heard they can do more harm than good to micro players who are facing less than great players at the tables, isn't it better to play based off of villains tendencies?

Absolutely but you want to have a default game with 3bets and 4bets preflop until you know those tendencies.Postflop you can take some default lines on cbetting and barreling and although it might not be GTO perfect it wont be a million miles away.The thing i worry the least about is balancing river bluffs in the micros.

when you start out learning poker, it doesn't seem right to use a solver to come up with default lines this removes all the thinking for you. Isn't it better to come up with spots on your own to 3 and 4-bet so you understand why your doing it and not just doing it because a program says to? I don't see how you will learn how to know when to do things optimally if your following what a computer tells you to do...again I am not very knowledgeable about GTO or solvers but from the idea I've gotten from them they seem to cut out the player thinking.

But your going to need some default preflop ranges like rfi ranges and cold call ranges which most people just get from range charts.And then you need to have default lines post flop on certain board textures and run outs.Otherwise your not actually doing anything for a reason postflop in a vacuum.Balancing 3bets and 4bets isnt so importantr i dont think.You can just use value ranges and add a few bluffs like suited wheel aces to begin with.So without using any solvers just learning about what turns to barrel as semi bluffs etc.. is all adding balance to your game.I dont have any experience with using solvers ive never used one.

I solved this hand out of curiosity.
Flop is mostly a check with the entire range. This board hits BTN flatting range well (very well) so you can't just start betting. Even AA, KK, AQ are mostly checks.
With this combo the solver checks 65% if the time and bets 70% pot the other 35%. The standard line it takes is a check/call and that's something I was expecting.
Even QQ/99 are checks almost 100% of the time because they block hands you want him to continue with (KQ, QT, Q9, J9).

As played, turn is a check/fold. When taking your flop line the solver likes to continue OTT only 30% of the time (hands like AA, AJs, KJs, Q8s small size, KK, QTs, J8s, 65s, 54s bigger size).
The T♣: is a good card for BTN and that's why.
Again, QQ and 99 are checks once you cbet the flop.

Originally posted by zetozinho
I solved this hand out of curiosity.
Flop is mostly a check with the entire range. This board hits BTN flatting range well (very well) so you can't just start betting. Even AA, KK, AQ are mostly checks.
With this combo the solver checks 65% if the time and bets 70% pot the other 35%. The standard line it takes is a check/call and that's something I was expecting.
Even QQ/99 are checks almost 100% of the time because they block hands you want him to continue with (KQ, QT, Q9, J9).

As played, turn is a check/fold. When taking your flop line the solver likes to continue OTT only 30% of the time (hands like AA, AJs, KJs, Q8s small size, KK, QTs, J8s, 65s, 54s bigger size).
The T♣: is a good card for BTN and that's why.
Again, QQ and 99 are checks once you cbet the flop.

Thanks for that and pretty much what i was expecting also check call --> cbet --> check fold.

Originally posted by zetozinho
I solved this hand out of curiosity.
Flop is mostly a check with the entire range. This board hits BTN flatting range well (very well) so you can't just start betting. Even AA, KK, AQ are mostly checks.
With this combo the solver checks 65% if the time and bets 70% pot the other 35%. The standard line it takes is a check/call and that's something I was expecting.
Even QQ/99 are checks almost 100% of the time because they block hands you want him to continue with (KQ, QT, Q9, J9).

As played, turn is a check/fold. When taking your flop line the solver likes to continue OTT only 30% of the time (hands like AA, AJs, KJs, Q8s small size, KK, QTs, J8s, 65s, 54s bigger size).
The T♣: is a good card for BTN and that's why.
Again, QQ and 99 are checks once you cbet the flop.

Ya I don't know, what pre-flop range did you give villain? I would bet AA alot of the time on that board, I don't think its very useful to constantly run GTO like this instead of studying the fundamentals and effective exploiting of villains. This stuff seems more important for people who are at a professional level, getting practice with ranges and the funnel principal along with discounting cards and combos and taking villains player type into account are going to go much farther than trying to memorize GTO because we are human calculators and we are taking everything into account not just the math and ignoring the outside stuff. GTO multi-way I heard is not as effective or solved yet aswell? I am reading a book online called mastering the micro stakes by Jonathan Little. I just realized it has GTO in it and it is a good book, seems daunting to try and memorize all the GTO at my level I have been studying poker intensely for the last 2 months and I think my time is better spent learning the basics of how to play my hands on various board textures with various opponents. solid concepts and principals will go a farther way for getting a micro player out of micros than some memorized lines I think. I will look deep into GTO when I am out of micros

Originally posted by killacasey

Originally posted by zetozinho
I solved this hand out of curiosity.
Flop is mostly a check with the entire range. This board hits BTN flatting range well (very well) so you can't just start betting. Even AA, KK, AQ are mostly checks.
With this combo the solver checks 65% if the time and bets 70% pot the other 35%. The standard line it takes is a check/call and that's something I was expecting.
Even QQ/99 are checks almost 100% of the time because they block hands you want him to continue with (KQ, QT, Q9, J9).

As played, turn is a check/fold. When taking your flop line the solver likes to continue OTT only 30% of the time (hands like AA, AJs, KJs, Q8s small size, KK, QTs, J8s, 65s, 54s bigger size).
The T♣: is a good card for BTN and that's why.
Again, QQ and 99 are checks once you cbet the flop.

Ya I don't know, what pre-flop range did you give villain? I would bet AA alot of the time on that board, I don't think its very useful to constantly run GTO like this instead of studying the fundamentals and effective exploiting of villains.

Correct that's just the GTO solution which runs a sim vs a GTO strategy.For the micros we want to deploy a more exploitable strategy and we would just value bet all our strong value hands like AA AQ KQ etc..

Originally posted by RedsYNWA

Originally posted by killacasey

Originally posted by zetozinho
I solved this hand out of curiosity.
Flop is mostly a check with the entire range. This board hits BTN flatting range well (very well) so you can't just start betting. Even AA, KK, AQ are mostly checks.
With this combo the solver checks 65% if the time and bets 70% pot the other 35%. The standard line it takes is a check/call and that's something I was expecting.
Even QQ/99 are checks almost 100% of the time because they block hands you want him to continue with (KQ, QT, Q9, J9).

As played, turn is a check/fold. When taking your flop line the solver likes to continue OTT only 30% of the time (hands like AA, AJs, KJs, Q8s small size, KK, QTs, J8s, 65s, 54s bigger size).
The T♣: is a good card for BTN and that's why.
Again, QQ and 99 are checks once you cbet the flop.

Ya I don't know, what pre-flop range did you give villain? I would bet AA alot of the time on that board, I don't think its very useful to constantly run GTO like this instead of studying the fundamentals and effective exploiting of villains.

Correct that's just the GTO solution which runs a sim vs a GTO strategy.For the micros we want to deploy a more exploitable strategy and we would just value bet all our strong value hands like AA AQ KQ etc..

So the whats the point of running all this on this thread if we are a bunch of micro players ?

Originally posted by zetozinho
I solved this hand out of curiosity.
Flop is mostly a check with the entire range. This board hits BTN flatting range well (very well) so you can't just start betting. Even AA, KK, AQ are mostly checks.
With this combo the solver checks 65% if the time and bets 70% pot the other 35%. The standard line it takes is a check/call and that's something I was expecting.
Even QQ/99 are checks almost 100% of the time because they block hands you want him to continue with (KQ, QT, Q9, J9).

As played, turn is a check/fold. When taking your flop line the solver likes to continue OTT only 30% of the time (hands like AA, AJs, KJs, Q8s small size, KK, QTs, J8s, 65s, 54s bigger size).
The T♣: is a good card for BTN and that's why.
Again, QQ and 99 are checks once you cbet the flop.

Thank you for that, really nice to learn
Btw, which solver do you use? Do you think its worth the investment? I never used one before.

Originally posted by killacasey

Originally posted by RedsYNWA

Originally posted by killacasey

Originally posted by zetozinho
I solved this hand out of curiosity.
Flop is mostly a check with the entire range. This board hits BTN flatting range well (very well) so you can't just start betting. Even AA, KK, AQ are mostly checks.
With this combo the solver checks 65% if the time and bets 70% pot the other 35%. The standard line it takes is a check/call and that's something I was expecting.
Even QQ/99 are checks almost 100% of the time because they block hands you want him to continue with (KQ, QT, Q9, J9).

As played, turn is a check/fold. When taking your flop line the solver likes to continue OTT only 30% of the time (hands like AA, AJs, KJs, Q8s small size, KK, QTs, J8s, 65s, 54s bigger size).
The T♣: is a good card for BTN and that's why.
Again, QQ and 99 are checks once you cbet the flop.

Ya I don't know, what pre-flop range did you give villain? I would bet AA alot of the time on that board, I don't think its very useful to constantly run GTO like this instead of studying the fundamentals and effective exploiting of villains.

Correct that's just the GTO solution which runs a sim vs a GTO strategy.For the micros we want to deploy a more exploitable strategy and we would just value bet all our strong value hands like AA AQ KQ etc..

So the whats the point of running all this on this thread if we are a bunch of micro players ?

Because this isn't a clear value hand we should cbet.And we dont want to be making to many betting or folding mistakes if this is a clear check call.