well I think you dont get that he just wanted to be nice and explained that concept. You are correct there is more value on playing exploitative. I congratulate you because you have mentioned a fact that we dont speak to much of because its trivial somehow. Of course you should play max value. In lower stakes you can play exploitative to get more out of it. Nevertheless you miss that fact that this means sometimes to have tougher decisions. For beginners its just to much to learn every concept right away so you generalize stuff to make a starters life easier. Well dont take this personal. Its important to discuss and repeat knowledge to get more out of it.
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Why do you keep removing my posts?? I’m not being disrespectful or rude in any way.
I am only trying to teach people how to play poker. I spent four months in a Bulgarian Poker school in 2010. Since then I made hundreds of thousands and spent 5 years writing a book on theory.
I am qualified...
You clearly don’t like exploitation, you clearly don’t like my exploitative theories, but nor can you beat me at poker so why are you deleting my stuff? You’re better off deleting your own.
Maniac... Purely exploitative decisions are far easier to make than GTO based decisions. You can learn to exploit in a fraction of the time if you completely forget about GTO. It’s only GTO theory that complicates exploitation.
You hear this a lot but it’s not true.
The reason many people think it’s true is because they realise that if they know GTO they can calculate how far they can adjust profitably.
This much is true, but, without GTO you can still work out exactly how profitable any play is. GTO simply complicates matters.
Originally posted by yadijavadi
This much is true, but, without GTO you can still work out exactly how profitable any play is. GTO simply complicates matters.
no.
No? I can’t work out how profitable a play is without GTO? That what you’re saying?
You can make calculations based on "guesses", and sometimes they are going to be more correct than what a solver tells you. You're exploit is never going to be perfect though, so you can make a calculation based on your exploit, but if you made an incorrect exploit your calculation is going to be wrong.
I'm not saying a solver strategy is perfect at all times, but sub 15bb you should probably be pretty close to what HRC shows in terms of push/fold. I still make exploits against some nitty regs, and the fact that no one is push or calling as wide as they should and most people are clueless when it comes to ICM (which is not a perfect model, but the best we have available).
The last part was a comment to your earlier statement..
Exploitation in general is not a perfect science. Whether you adjust from GTO or not. It’s always based on guesswork.
It’s still a far simpler calculation without GTO. I don’t get your point, your post makes no sense. Please do elaborate. You’re trying to say that adjusting from GTO gives you a more accurate exploitative profit figure?
Yes, I'm saying deviating from a solver strategy is gonna show a higher profit that playing based on your gut with no regard for equilibrium.
How is that?
Exploitation requires a far simpler calculation and it gives you the same solution.
Yeah no problem:
JC just explained the GTO based method: If you know, or if you can find, the GTO strategy for your actual range in a specific situation (eg, cbet 60% of my range), you can adjust from this strategy based on the villains “mistakes” to find the overall exploitative strategy for the situation. We can then see whether our specific hand fits into it that overall strategy.
For the exploitative method: you simply calculate whether your actual hand makes profit off the villains range. I have AA, he has AA - 22. On average I’ll make x profit.
Both these methods are very similar in that they require mostly the same variables. The biggest difference is the “actual range” that is an essential variable for a GTO player but is irrelevant to the exploitative player.
...Hopefully you’re all with me so far. That stuff is common knowledge. Any theorist worth his salt will teach all that similarly to how I’ve just described it...
Most dedicated players in today’s games choose to use the GTO based method for the extra accuracy they may gain, and because it doesn’t sound too tough a calculation. The problem is, we are only at Level Two.
Level Two is all about reacting to the villains past plays: You witness the villain making some play, you then design your strategy to maximise your profit off the tendency. You all know this type of exploitation I’m sure.
Level Three adds a whole new dimension to everything. It’s is all about controlling the opponents future actions.
To make a level three exploitative play you need to consider how your own perceived range will effect the villains range before you can calculate how much money you make off your individual hand. This calculation is starting to get big for the exploitative player, but it has become monumentally huge for the GTO based player. The complications brought about by the perceived range are magnified massively by the addition of the actual range. Add to this the fact that the GTO player still has to consider his actual range as well, and you might glimpse how ridiculous the sum is. This new range, our level three perceived range, is also very similar to our actual range and so causes a lot of confusion. For these reasons, most GTO based players never advance beyond Level Two.
GTO based players do use a combination of both these methods and so do stray into level three territory at times. But they don’t often consciously realise that they are using a combination of these methods. They are only using both methods because in their minds they have gotten the two tangled and confused...
It could be said that the main difference in these calculations comes from the hardware we use to make said calculations:
GTO is a strategy that existed before mans first thought. One way of finding this strategy in poker is by considering your actual range and balancing the strength in accordance with the price. This method was basically discovered by Nash in the 1950. It works, but this method is alien to the human mind.
The human mind has been evolving for billions of years and has found its own method for concocting GTO. We can naturally find the GTO strategy by using the exploitative levels.
GTO exists as the highest level. When exploiting, before reaching GTO, you exploit all the tendencies of the villains using all the other levels. Thus all potential profit is absorbed.
When a GTO based player tries to exploit they have to do the sum backwards: he starts with GTO and then tries to adjust to find the exploitative line. As the GTO player is trying to start from the end and work backwards they basically miss a load of the lessons along the way. They miss pieces of exploitative theory which makes them miss exploitative lines and so are forced to rely on GTO way more heavily than is needed.
Using an alien calculation creates problems of its own. The trust they place in each individual strategy starts to take a heavy price from their creativity. They also suffer from cognitive dissonance as their learned plays and theories conflict with the natural exploitative method.
All this for what? Does it really help to consider that actual range anyway? No! It’s just the most ingenious of illusions.
We’re talking about the deep inner workings of the mind here. This isn’t just poker anymore. We’re talking about the evolution of the mind, how we learn, how we operate without even thinking. This is about the mind and how it coexists with the body.
You see, the body operates on level Two, it’s always trying to memorise the perfect strategy based on things it’s learnt. The body created the conscious mind so that we can analyse the future in order to help the body learn the best plays for each situation. This learning process splits into something called “the four stages of learning” which ends with a person developing the unconscious ability to apply said strategy.
This is what the conscious mind was built for, to help the body find more and more of these strategies. Unfortunately, the body is making a massive mistake.
Once we’re consciously able to anticipate the future we can see the infinite nature of possibilities and so realise that the method the body is using is flawed. Ideally, the perfect strategist will approach each decision with an open mind so that they are able to concoct any strategy. “You must become the teapot”. The body’s method is further flawed due to the process in which it communicates to the conscious mind via emotions.
Basically, a battle between the body and the mind was raging well before you started learning strategies at the poker tables. Poker players inadvertently dive into this internal battle without even knowing it.
Weighing in at 200lbs, THE BODY!
To protect the trust it places in plays, the body uses all kinds of tricks. It hides strategic theory from the mind. It hinders our conscious ability to rationalise by emotionally compromising us leaving us no option but to use its memorised plays. It’s like inner demons sneak attack us.
Weighing in at zero lbs: THE MIND!
The conscious mind seems to have only the power to veto decisions made by the body. This is how we consciously interfere with the bodies instinctual decision making process. We have the power to say no to our desires. This one move isn’t so bad when you realise that doing nothing is better than GTO. It would also explain why God seems to do nothing.
Special move: The Perfect Strategy.
If a player learns what they deem to be a “perfect” strategy for any game, the trust they place in the play is magnified and so the body protects this play aggressively. All their inner demons are unleashed to protect this perfect strategy.
GTO is even an worse strategy because, in a way, it is the perfect strategy. If everyone understood all exploitative theory upto Level infinity they would realise GTO being “perfect” only really shows us that there is no such thing as a perfect strategy. GTO in many ways is the worst possible strategy. It sucks the life out of games by reducing the potential for profit. It heavily corrupts the mind. It’s also the only strategy that is never the best strategy because if our opponent was using GTO we’d be better off doing nothing.
GTO has many alluring characteristics. Even the name sounds pretty awesome. G.T.O. But even it’s name is nonsense concocted by a couple of poker players’ inner demons. The players in question eventually apologised for naming a strategy that was never the best: “optimal”, but that didn’t stop everyone else’s demons grasping onto the idea and then vehemently promoting the strategy as such.
This thing is like the mathematical equation for corruption itself. Like a growing darkness, a shadow that spreads over the world and the mind alike. Slowly but surely knowledge of GTO consumes all rational arguments in society by using these inner demons to strangle those who deliver any perfectly true theories. In the end, all that will be left is GTO, well, the ecological world won’t survive that long.
The End is Nigh
Everyone in the world is blaming everyone else for our sorry state of affairs. The rich blame the poor and the poor blame the rich. Protests erupt everywhere. It’s weird that I’m the only one who understands the real truth:
Super Special Move: The truth
All the reasons for using GTO are twisted and untrue. Before any of these existed, before the first speck of dust in the universe, the truth was everywhere. Knowledge of the truth will always overcome any form of deception. Not even the devil himself can stop society gradually learning more and more truths about this thing we call life.
...That is, provided society survives...
The truth that I’m revealing to you now is that the whole world has been subject to the most ingenious web of deceit. No man or woman is responsible, but instead it’s been created and sustained by demons and is ruled over by a strategy as cunning as the devil himself. If it’s not addressed the world will end.
Their own bodies have been guiding businesses and economists into needlessly destroying our economical world whilst minimising each of our profits and stripping our planet dry of resources. That’s what happens when GTO takes over. This GTO thought process was created by a guy who was completely insane and it effects the minds of everyone both directly and indirectly in many ways. GTO is some weird demonic shit. This piece of knowledge alone is the real cause of almost all our current dilemmas as a species.
I can’t stress that enough lol...
I don’t know why I write these things anymore, I mean, I’m pretty sure the mod was just trying to catch me out. Or rather, his inner demons were trying to catch me out. He consciously would have just thought that “it’d be nice for the readers to get an understanding of what Yadi’s speaking about”. But his body was laying a trap for me, knowing that I would have to write a wall of text to answer such a difficult series of questions... I guess I just hope that one of you will be open minded enough to recognise the truth in what I’m writing. Perhaps it’ll be the mods???
Its not too important to me anymore. I’m launching a new exchange system in a fortnight that I’m convinced will solve this global dilemma. I’ve designed a new type of capitalist transaction called a Freesale and I expect my system will replace trade altogether in many places within a few short years.
If any of you want to join in please do, it’s mostly just me and my brother working on it. He’s a coder.
well I am sorry for you. You seem very troubled to me. Keep staying positive you have just this one life like everyone else. Nevertheless you may check some of you facts.
Equilibrium Points in n-Person Games
John F. Nash
If I am a crazy guy, I really don’t mind. I can still make £100 per hour at the poker tables.
If I’m not a crazy guy, if im to be remembered as a legendary game theorist, what will everyone make of you?
I come here only to teach people like you. You obviously don’t learn anything. Nor do you ask any questions. Nor do you highlight any flaws in my logic. You just imply I’m a crazy guy.
It’s not exactly helpful, is it? You gonna tell us some of these facts I have wrong or do we need to buy the book?
the book is for free. I dont ask questions because I simply dont want to argue with you. I just implied that every logic or model is somehow scientifically flawed. If you want a real discussion you have to be nicer. You pay writing things for free with your time. I just dont want to waste mine with something thats anyway lost.
It was you who said I was “troubled” lol. I just asked you to justify this statement.
You still haven’t...