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How not to be result oriented?

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LeMahdi
Joined: 10.02.2019

So they say, you should not be result oriented and you have to ignore the result etc but is this easy?

I find it really difficult.. I mean how we can ignore the result when it's about 8 months that you started playing and you are struggling in 2NL?

My story: 8 months of playing on 2NL. I am going up and going down. My first deposit was 20 euros, I played it in a way (maybe chance, maybe aggressive..) that I ended up 80 euros, then I went through a downswing and had 70€ loss. So back to 10€ and I am moving up again.

After reading 'Mental game of poker', I really do not tilt, I know the fact the variance can play hugely, but , I just cannot stop looking at my bankroll.. if I win, I look at my bankroll and counting to the very last cent, if I lose, I do not blame myself, but I do not feeling good looking at that bankroll.

So I can say, I am really result oriented..

Is this something that we can overcome easily?


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11 replies
yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

It’s only whilst making decisions at the table that you want to avoid being results orientated. If you’re losing for 8 months in the 2c game this is probably something that you want to address.

It obviously depends on how many hands you play, but even with variance that’s a tough task for a winning player. You probably have to accept that you are not a winning player and get some coaching or read some more books or watch some videos/streams.

I could take a look at your stats if you are able to screenshot and post them? Once you’re regularly beating the $100 games you won’t be so anxious when you look at your bankroll.


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stevegold87
Joined: 18.06.2009

How many hands are we talking about here?
Otherwise I agree with yadi, if you are losing on 8months in NL2 you might be doing something wrong.


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LeMahdi
Joined: 10.02.2019

thanks!

hands I played: 48K


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

this is only -5.37 BB/100
as your graph shows, you ran hot and cold -- over time this will even out.

It might be worth while reviewing some of your other stats -- calling too many rivers maybe?
I only say that because you went to showdown in half of the hands you play.

Cheers,
VS


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arthurbentley
Joined: 12.10.2010

Originally posted by LeMahdi
thanks!

hands I played: 48K

Firstly I am not a coach and my experience of online poker is playing mainly 2NL. I've played like a sick volume of hands over the years as a fun player. Winning at roughly 8bb over 2million hands played, all without a HUD.

Looking at your graph of 48k hands played. This hand sample is actually very small. 48k hands might seem like a big sample, but it is possible for a losing player to be winning for 50k hands such is the variance in poker. A more reliable hands played sample would be 250k.

Looking at your stats, VVIP of 23% is a bit on the laggy side for full ring which is okay if you have got good post flop skills. If you play 6-max 23% VVIP is more or less perfect.

If you are not good post flop laggy style could decimate your bankroll. The higher variance requires a larger bankroll to protect you from the massive swings.

There is less variance in full ring games than there is in 6-max. If you have a small bankroll playing full ring is safer.

It is also noticeable that you limp and cold call a lot of hands because your PPF stat is 11%. Your AGF is strong at 50%. Solid lags tend to raise nearly all of their holdings and rarely flat call or limp.

I personally play a more weak tight game. I identify the five main playing styles and give them a colour code each. 1)TAG 2) LAG 3) Loose Bad 4) Tight Passive 5) Table Maniac

I adapt my game to these specific five player types and make careful notes on them. I will often float weak tight players who are the easiest to bluff. I will also allow LAGs and Table Maniacs to hang themselves by checking to them on the turn if my hand improves or is nutted and the board is more draw heavy. My weak tight image is a red flag for them to bluff huge, often shoving on the river.

I would recommend, at least while you are bankroll building at 2NL, to play weak tight ABC poker, while adapting to the five different player styles you will face on the tables. You should easily make a 10bb/100 winrate playing this way. Then once your bankroll grows and you move up stakes, you could revert to being more laggy again.


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LeMahdi
Joined: 10.02.2019



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Torcato
Joined: 17.02.2010

Hello LeMahdi,

First, forget about the Leak Tracker, I use PT4 myself and soon realised it is not a tool where we should trust too much. It's good for reference, but not much than that.
Second, as some people have said before, that hand sample is quite small to be results oriented. Because the truth is, we should be results oriented of course! As long as we're being logical, we should look to the results. I'd like to look to your stats and try to help you out, if you're comfortable in posting them here. If you prefer you can send them by PM.
Even with that small sample, I'm sure you're doing some big mistakes, because just by looking at your VPIP/PFR (23/11) we know that you have passive tendencies. And I'm sure you have heard bad news about passive players :)

Cheers and keep studying the game!


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yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

Nice! That’s what we want to see!... So....

Stealing

Stealing in those games is so darn profitable! But you don’t do it nearly enough. My steal in those games would probably be closer to 60% rather than the 15% or so that you showed.

If the villains fold most their blinds, or if they call the opens and fold to Cbets, I would steal and then Cbet with any hands as it makes clean profit. If those two bets fail to get a fold, to prevent negative implied odds, you will need to tighten up like butt-cheeks in a Tai brothel.

Defence Against Stealing

It looks like you are the kind of guy who does that same thing: it looks like you fold to lots of steals and then fold often postflop too. Therefore, you will find some villains abusing you in the way I just described.

To counter these guys you first need to identify them by looking to their steal %, if this is high (like my 60%) and they fold often, 3bet and barrel often as bluffs with improving hands. If their steal is high but they don’t fold often, 3bet and barrel often when you have all kinds of value hands. Like broadway cards preflop or tp on the flop.

Folding Postflop

You are folding way too often postflop. GTO is going to be something like 35% fold to Cbet but you are folding about 60%! This will be bleeding redline. If any half decent reg sees those numbers he will Cbet against you with any hand.

To amend this problem, you need to follow the villains range and bluff raise his cbets when his range mostly misses the board. You also need to stop putting yourself in these situations so much by refraining from calling the villains preflop bets.

The Two Reasons for Betting

These stats lead me to believe that you are a “value man”. You bet very few flops but barrel far more turns. This shows me that you generally just bet when you have a hand.

You need to be fully aware that there are two types of profit you can aim to make in poker:

Value: Getting the villain to continue with a weaker hand than your holding.

AND

Bluff: Getting the villain to fold a stronger hand than your holding.

Level Two

To calculate those two types of profit you need to put the villain on a range. When a player is capable of this we call him a Level Two player.

You appear to be what we call a Level One player. It looks like you are not following the villains range much if at all.

Your thought-process is very important at the tables. To maximise your profit you have to follow the villains range. If you address this one issue you will find that all those above issues solve themselves.

At the start of a hand, when the cards are dealt, each villain has 100% of cards in his range. Then everytime he makes an action, we reassess his range. It’s like a game of “guess who”: As the villain makes decisions we simply remove hands from his range as they become unlikely.

The way you will assess the villains holding as a Level Two player is by looking at his past actions. If he opens 60% of buttons we assign him a range containing 60% of hands.

Once you can see that the villain is stealing from the button with a range of hands containing T2o you realise that you need to attack for those folds. Thus the above problems will be mostly solved without having to address each individual hole directly.

If you can do all that, you will be a level Two player.

Level Three

Once you can do that it’s time to start following your own perceived range: Everytime you make a move, imagine that you are the villain and imagine which hands he will take from your range.

Once you can follow your own perceived range you realise that the villains overall stats only give us an overall idea of his range in certain situations. To gain a better understanding of the villains range we can now consider his understanding of his opponents:

If he thinks his opponent has a strong hand, and he bets, we can assume that he has a much stronger holding than his opponent appears to hold.

Whenever the villains opponent is us, we can use this same information to lure the villain into believing we hold hands that we don’t. We can start trying to make our hand look weak when we’re strong so that the villain comes along. We can try to look strong when we’re weak to make the villain fold.

At level Two you read the villains range, at level three you take control of the villains range.

Once you reach level three and are following both these ranges reasonably accurately you are almost certain to be a winning player and so your problem with results will be over.

Ps... My assessment of you here is completely guesswork. If I had more stats I would be able to make a more detailed assessment. Making assessments like this is exactly how I make money from my villains so I am pretty good at it. As you have shown me stats for many hands and have spoken about your hands I’m pretty confident everything I’ve written here is accurate.

If you would like me to work through your thought-process with you to boost you upto Level Three you need to write a detailed description of any 1 decision. In this description you need to point out every single factor you would consider at the tables, but your math can be rough estimations. I’d then go through your assessment and would point out all the factors that you missed.


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LeMahdi
Joined: 10.02.2019

Thanks :)

Sorry I am noob in PT4 , aren't those the stats that requested? I thought those are my stats..

Can you guide me when you say stats, where exactly I should export that?


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yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

Those stats were fine. The more the merrier though.

Btw, if you do want me to assess your thought-process please choose a decision that is very easy, to save us both time. A late river call perhaps, a decision where the ranges are small.


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aceonetheriver
Joined: 26.12.2008

On the mental side, you have to play more, even if you are having a winning session. Don't just call it a day. set time or hands before you play, and stick to it, no matter if you are losing or winning.

GL


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