Fold AA on flop

Really horrible flop you could probably even make a good case for checking back the flop here and playing pot control.

I would play Pot control and check, but also depends on table dynamics.

You also don't block the flush draw so if vilian has AQs, KQs (Diamonds) he is fist pumping getting it in but your still a 53% favourite on the flop. You could make a argument to get it on the flop because you will get it in slightly ahead of the drawing hands.

Is this opponent going to be that agro? has he just lost a huge pot and could be on tilt? without table dynamics its difficult. If you give villian a 6% 3bet range so 88+ up to KK you have 67% against that range of hands on the flop. I am probably being generous with this range and the BB should 3 bet more against a active CO but this probably isnt happening at 2nl very often.

lets say you did call on the turn, your going to be faced with a pot size bet from villian,and alot of turn cards wont help you for example any diamond, 7, J or 9,8,10. I think that's 22 cards. This is assuming the villain is on a draw and not overplaying AKo, AQo, JJ which makes you over 77% to win at showdown. He could also have the nuts but with no player info will never know if it was a good fold. If he is a manic never fold, and re jam all in on flop and if he has it unlucky.

Just my 2c.

I have moved your hand to our hand discussion forum. There fits it better.
Flop play seems decent. He needs to be agro to have semi blufs in his range and against a unknown on NL2 a fold isn't bad.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Thx for moving the thread SDK.
I saw it too late, but making a duplicate didn't make sense either.

My idea behind the cbet was.. well, we cbet a lot and it gives more information.
The flop hits my 3bet range quiet well, just not with this holding.
So I expect him to fold his lower pocket pairs, AXs with wrong suit.
If I was the villain, I would make his play with a set or strong draw. Either way, we're not ahead by a lot even against his semi bluffs.
And if I check, then what? Fold to a bet?
Call and see turn while we might be drawing dead already?

It's not likely that we improve. Even if we hit a set... Then what? We might still be behind..

It doesn't really hit your btn 3bet range all that well tbh as most hands that hit this flop your flatting ip most of the time.Depending on villains 3bet flatting range oop from the co they can have all the sets and QJs T9s 98s (although not always flatting those oop).So your essentially bluff catching turns and rivers on ok run outs and going for showdown.But i also think cbetting is ok to charge all the draws.But they can raise this flop quite aggressively imo which isn't great for us cbetting.Im not sure if one line is that much superior to the other but i like taking the pot control line here.

it doesn't really hit your btn 3bet range all that well tbh

I disagree.. lots of suited connectors and AXs combo's would give me a strong draw as well.
Maybe at higher stakes you flat with those. But not on the micros where people overfold to 3bets and the high rake only kicks in postflop

Hero has a tiny range advantage on this flop, this should lead you to bet large and infrequently something like 3/4 pot or pot.When you have a significant range advantage you want to bet often and small and when you have a tiny advantage or no advantage you want to bet large and infrequently, as the board becomes more draw heavy you typically want to bet a little bit larger as-well because there is value from extracting value from the draws. With the range advantages in mind the other thing we need to take into account is how strong our hand is on the flop, and I think AA is on the cusp at the point between premium and marginal because of the board, so I think you should be betting large or checking.

You will find you usually don't have the range advantage as the pre-flop aggressor on middle card boards or usually very co-ordinate d boards unless the co-ordinate d cards are all very high cards

Originally posted by marcvz

it doesn't really hit your btn 3bet range all that well tbh

I disagree.. lots of suited connectors and AXs combo's would give me a strong draw as well.
Maybe at higher stakes you flat with those. But not on the micros where people overfold to 3bets and the high rake only kicks in postflop

I'm only playing micros myself but i still think most of those are flats pre most of the time.With the exception of Axs which for me are mostly 3bets vs the co.You also need to protect your checking range a bit on these boards other wise your going to be folding a lot to turn bets.But i'm certainly not saying it's an incorrect strategy you probably do want to mix it up between 3bet and flat with those hands depending on the villain.

I agree with Reds on the fact that most of your suited connectors, suited weak aces and suited broad-way's would just flat in this position, they are good to see a flop with and 3-betting with QQ+ AJs+,AQo+.

I looked at a GTO chart for playing versus a CO RFI and we are calling with most of our suited connectors, most of our suited aces and raising QQ+, AJs+, AQo+.

Well, playing GTO at the micros is something I disagree with to.
Exploitative works much better with all those fish at the table.

I would go as far as saying that being balanced doesn't even matter at most micro tables... The fish don't even pay attention to your cards. They only focus on their own holding anyway.

Originally posted by marcvz
Well, playing GTO at the micros is something I disagree with to.
Exploitative works much better with all those fish at the table.

I would go as far as saying that being balanced doesn't even matter at most micro tables... The fish don't even pay attention to your cards. They only focus on their own holding anyway.

The GTO charts Show optimal ways to enter the pot from each position, GTO pre-flop charts have nothing to do with how you play post flop but they are a solid guideline for starting hands. The GTO hand charts can be deviated from but they are a good crutch to lean on, GTO is choosing to flat with suited connectors etc, I think there is good reason for it. I’m not a GTO fanboy I use Exploitative strategy far more than GTO but I don’t blindly ignore GTO because I know it is effective and useful.

The best players in the world are using GTO plays as guidelines for how they play, they deviate at times but it is a very good learning tool.

Sure. GTO isn't bad.
But the big difference between the best players in the world and us micro players, is that they play against the best in the world.

Starting charts are good. But it all depends on stats you have.
If CO opens 50%+ and has a high fold to 3bet. I would suggest 3betting them.
You pick up a lot of take free pots. And even if you get a call, you have a good hand to see a flop with.

I think we are saying the same. GTO is the perfect baseline. But if you can clearly define a reason to deviate, do so.

Yeap we are on the same page.There is a clear difference that we are playing against micro players but there is still a lot to be learned by understanding why GTO chooses the actions it does, that is where the golden information comes from. I like to save my suited connectors, Ax’s and some suited broadways to flat call and make big pots with my big hands like what you are doing here pre-flop. I feel if you were to raise all your playable hands from BU here you wouldn’t have much of a flatting range would you?

If we constantly 3-bet our playables even some micro players are capable of picking up on the fact that Our flat calling range would be weaker and attack it on the flop

I think it's fine to assume micro players overfold and don't adjust.
Once you get more calls or 4bets, you can adjust to a more GTO balanced style.

Some strategists suggest it's fine to not have a flatting range on the sb. I think it's fine for the btn Vs a loose fishy co as well.

But it all depends on the raiser. If it's a tag player, I flat. But if it's a 50% player, 3bet.
I will flat with low suited connectors, some pocket pairs. AJ, AT. Etc. So there is enough flatting range left, especially because you can widen your range overall against those fishy players that open so wide.

And the rake is a big reason to lean towards 3betting also of course. Once I'll have the bankroll for higher limits where the rake is less brutal, I'll adjust the 3bet and flatting ranges.

Originally posted by marcvz
Thx for moving the thread SDK.
I saw it too late, but making a duplicate didn't make sense either.

My idea behind the cbet was.. well, we cbet a lot and it gives more information.
The flop hits my 3bet range quiet well, just not with this holding.
So I expect him to fold his lower pocket pairs, AXs with wrong suit.
If I was the villain, I would make his play with a set or strong draw. Either way, we're not ahead by a lot even against his semi bluffs.
And if I check, then what? Fold to a bet?
Call and see turn while we might be drawing dead already?

It's not likely that we improve. Even if we hit a set... Then what? We might still be behind..

CO will have a condensed range made up of good suited cards and pocket pairs... which pretty much smashes this board. Even if BTN has a small advantage, equity it somewhat static on this board (QJ has loads of equity and it's unlikely to change) which doesn't allow you to bet often due to lacking nut advantage.

Betting for information is a bad idea , C-bet when you are trying to get value or bluff, we will get information while doing so as a bonus. With marginal hands you want to get closer to the river because your hand has showdown equity, when you bet with marginal hands you risk getting blown off the hand when faced with a raise, this is an example of it. Checking was probably the best line

You can cbet but be prepared to call it down against strong players from time to time. That board is good for him (and his bluffs).
Bare in mind that hands like AT, JJ, QQ should check/raise this flop often. Obviously I don't expect a NL2 player to be aware of this. You're never going to be exploited by folding AA OTF. Also recall that you have all the sets and straights here, you're not capped and that AA is not the top of your range.
Checking back is the highest frequency play here.
About GTO... sure deviating from it is better, but you need to understand the theory in order to deviate correctly. Btw, a bot would absolutely print money at micros playing balanced.

Horrible flop but.. calling your pre-flop raise with QJ seems pretty unlikely (depending on villain's play style).
My guess would be that he had his own pocket pair (overpair or even a set), and he was scared of the draws as well or he had JJ which gave him an overpair + open ended straight draw

Indeed a bad flop. There are many hands your opponent could have. And the raise on the flop could represents SO many things. It seems to me a flush draw or a straight draw with a pocket pair, e.g. JJ or QQ. I don't think the nuts would have raised you, as they would probably like to build the pot. So in my opinion, your opponent had a strong hand , such as pocket pair, 88+, KTs (of diamonds), or JJ+...yes its very possible he had AA too. In my opinion as you already committed to the pot, you could at least cll 20more BB, and re-evaluate on the river. EVEN shove would be good. Fold is good too, by all means, but sometimes we give too much credit to our opponents, and many times I think - What would I do if I had the nuts at this moment! Anyways, good play! Hope you smash it next time