Is it possible to make an income playing cash games?

Hey thanks for a great explanation...Where would you suggest to play cash? I truly hate this cash out shit

Partypoker?

Originally posted by nsavov

But you don't want to pay that 1% extra fee to Cash-Out your equity.
So... you are all-in against... drum rolls, please... POKERSTARS!
What was that old saying about gambling and the house? The house always loses. No, wait, that wasn't it...

Totally irrelevant as the decks are preset before the hand starts.

Yeah, back when losing players were talking about how Stars was rigged, we, "the winning players" were laughing at such accusations. Well, we are not laughing so loud today.

Winning players should never use it as it reduces their Ev and their win rate long term.

I don't even play these days but feel like this information is really important and PokerStrategy does a great job hyping up terrible rooms, instead of giving valuable true infromation. And ofcourse, they edit or flat out delete comments that mention rooms that are not partnered with them, even if they once were, and it's not like people haven't heard of those rooms. Oh, and threats of bans.
Bring it on!

Yeah Party Poker seems good...Not sure with Run It Once...Traffic is most of the time low...

Really need to see Pokerstars or Partypoker as I don’t mind to play without a HUD...

Originally posted by Lazza61

Originally posted by nsavov

But you don't want to pay that 1% extra fee to Cash-Out your equity.
So... you are all-in against... drum rolls, please... POKERSTARS!
What was that old saying about gambling and the house? The house always loses. No, wait, that wasn't it...

Totally irrelevant as the decks are preset before the hand starts.

Player starsPlayer = players.GetPlayerInHand(x => x.CashOut == true);
List<Card> starsOuts = starsPlayer.GetOuts().ToList();
if(!starsOuts.Contains(deck.NextCard)
{
deck.NextCard = starsOuts.FirstOrDefault();
}

See? 6 lines. I'm not saying I've seen their code, but have you?

Originally posted by nsavov

Originally posted by Lazza61

Originally posted by nsavov

But you don't want to pay that 1% extra fee to Cash-Out your equity.
So... you are all-in against... drum rolls, please... POKERSTARS!
What was that old saying about gambling and the house? The house always loses. No, wait, that wasn't it...

Totally irrelevant as the decks are preset before the hand starts.

Player starsPlayer = players.GetPlayerInHand(x => x.CashOut == true);
List<Card> starsOuts = starsPlayer.GetOuts().ToList();
if(!starsOuts.Contains(deck.NextCard)
{
deck.NextCard = starsOuts.FirstOrDefault();
}

See? 6 lines. I'm not saying I've seen their code, but have you?

As far as I know every poker site needs a license to operate. Just because almost anyone can write couple lines of code does not mean they do.
Loosing license could be worse thing to happen for such a site like Poker Stars.

A couple of things:
 No, I have not seen their code, however their code is subject to inspection and monitoring.
 Although GGPoker PLO rake is low, there is no cap, and since many PLO hands are very often all-in by the river rake can be overall higher then sites that have a cap.
 Note that if a player cashes out, they get their money back, less the 1% fee, but their contribution is not removed from the pot, so if the player wins, PokerStars is out double the cashout amount, less the 1% fee. Long term, PokerStars would therefore likely break even, and pocket the 1% fee of course.

1. How do you know that?

2. The rake-caps at stars are as follows:
at PLO2 - $0.30 (15bb)
at PLO5 - $1.00 (20bb)
at PLO10 - $1.50 (15bb)
at PLO25 - $2.00 (8bb)
at PLO50 - $2.00 (4bb)
How is 15bb cap different from no cap? Sure, you will pay like half a blind less rake if you stack off for 200bb, but how often do you really do that? Not to mention the rake difference of all the small pots compred to GG and no rakeback...
You are literally spitting on GG (which to be fair is reasonable) but failing to get it to your thick head that stars is much worse. That's ok, do whatever you want... but you (coaches and moderators) are misleading your players.

3. They pay 1% fee of the equity. That's what I said. But I find it funny how you dodge all the concerns and focus on a mistake that I did not even make, masking it with buzz words like long-term. Seriously, guys, it's getting annoying.

Originally posted by nsavov
1. How do you know that?

I looked it up of course:
https://en.ggpoker.com/poker-games/omaha/ -- there is a different page for each game
and https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/rake/

Let's look at two players playing PLO 10 with an effective stack of 200BB, all-in before the river
On PokerStars:
Pot: 40.00 x 4.5$ = 1.80
So cap applies and the rake is $1.50

On GGPoker:
Pot: 40.00 x 3% = 1.20
So actually less than PokerStars

So the answer is easy: Never play deep stacked on GGPoker
Even better, as gimmicky as it may be, GGPoker has rakeback.

How is 15bb cap different from no cap? Sure, you will pay like half a blind less rake if you stack off for 200bb, but how often do you really do that? Not to mention the rake difference of all the small and no rakeback...
You are literally spitting on GG (which to be fair is reasonable) but failing to get it to your thick head that stars is much worse. That's ok, do whatever you want... but you (coaches and moderators) are misleading your players.

 A cap is different from no cap in that once you are more than 200BB deep, you pay more rake than you would with the cap.
 When watching PLO players on stream, they play deep stacked quite a lot.
 You could have made your point without the insult. If you don't like PokerStars, don't play there.
 If I made an factual error, please point it out. No coaches and no moderators deliberately mislead.

3. They pay 1% fee of the equity. That's what I said. But I find it funny how you dodge all the concerns and focus on a mistake that I did not even make, masking it with buzz words like long-term. Seriously, guys, it's getting annoying.

What is getting annoying is that you continue to accuse PokerStars of criminal activity without evidence.
If you don't like PokerStars, don't play there
If you don't like cashout, don't use it.
"Long term" is not a buzzword, it is the reality of poker. PokerStars makes 1% off of any player who cashed out their equity.
If no-one every cashed out their equity, at the end each player would have their equity.
If one person cashes out his equity, and the other doesn't, in the end the player that doesn't will have his equity, the cowardly player will have 1% less.

I apologize for the rant, but you struck a nerve here. Mods put in a couple of hours each day voluntarily -- we don't get paid.
I do my best to provide factual information backed up with references to sources wherever possible.
I do my best to be fair to all poker rooms -- even those I don't like -- but I there is something I don't like about a room, I'll be specific about it, without trashing the room in general and more importantly without trashing the other PokerStrategy.com members who might like to play there.

Best regards,
VS

Originally posted by nsavov
Perhaps I should explain how Cash-Out works:

You are ALL-IN vs 1 player.
He is not drawing dead, neither are you.
He chooses to Cash out his equity.
PokerStars gives him the money equal to his equity minus 1% fee.

So far so good...

But you don't want to pay that 1% extra fee to Cash-Out your equity.
So... you are all-in against... drum rolls, please... POKERSTARS!
What was that old saying about gambling and the house? The house always loses. No, wait, that wasn't it...

Yeah, back when losing players were talking about how Stars was rigged, we, "the winning players" were laughing at such accusations. Well, we are not laughing so loud today.

That's the reason against playing cash games on Stars. Tournaments, HUSNGs and spins are OK-ish.

Other reasons why you should not play anything on Stars:

1. Hidden exchange fee if you make the mistake of depositing or withdrawing to/from the correct currency.
You can avoid it by making sure you chose the correct preffered currency before depositing and exchanging the money through the cashier before withdrawing.
But they don't tell you this.

2. Basically no rakeback

3. Higher tournament fee - 12%. The MTT-SnGs are fine though...

I have won many all ins it can be done, I don't use the cash out.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
A couple of things:
 No, I have not seen their code, however their code is subject to inspection and monitoring.
 Although GGPoker PLO rake is low, there is no cap, and since many PLO hands are very often all-in by the river rake can be overall higher then sites that have a cap.
 Note that if a player cashes out, they get their money back, less the 1% fee, but their contribution is not removed from the pot, so if the player wins, PokerStars is out double the cashout amount, less the 1% fee. Long term, PokerStars would therefore likely break even, and pocket the 1% fee of course.

Yes as above I've won many hands all in on this site so if I can do it anyone can do it!

Originally posted by nsavov
Perhaps I should explain how Cash-Out works:

You are ALL-IN vs 1 player.
He is not drawing dead, neither are you.
He chooses to Cash out his equity.
PokerStars gives him the money equal to his equity minus 1% fee.

So far so good...

But you don't want to pay that 1% extra fee to Cash-Out your equity.
So... you are all-in against... drum rolls, please... POKERSTARS!
What was that old saying about gambling and the house? The house always loses. No, wait, that wasn't it...

Yeah, back when losing players were talking about how Stars was rigged, we, "the winning players" were laughing at such accusations. Well, we are not laughing so loud today.

That's the reason against playing cash games on Stars. Tournaments, HUSNGs and spins are OK-ish.

Other reasons why you should not play anything on Stars:

1. Hidden exchange fee if you make the mistake of depositing or withdrawing to/from the correct currency.
You can avoid it by making sure you chose the correct preffered currency before depositing and exchanging the money through the cashier before withdrawing.
But they don't tell you this.

2. Basically no rakeback

3. Higher tournament fee - 12%. The MTT-SnGs are fine though...

use US$ ?

Originally posted by hardlife66
No, not sure what I was trying exactly! I've now played 1000 hands for the full BI of $2 but it doesn't make great reading as I made a small loss of $-0.12 = -6.79 BB/100 got sucked in twice and lost to a set twice got to watch that.
If we add in the one above then it looks a bit more promising:

Hands 1241
Profit $2.82
BB/100 55.23

Current totals

1837 hands 77.52 BB/100

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by nsavov
1. How do you know that?

I looked it up of course:
https://en.ggpoker.com/poker-games/omaha/ -- there is a different page for each game
and https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/rake/

Let's look at two players playing PLO 10 with an effective stack of 200BB, all-in before the river
On PokerStars:
Pot: 40.00 x 4.5$ = 1.80
So cap applies and the rake is $1.50

On GGPoker:
Pot: 40.00 x 3% = 1.20
So actually less than PokerStars

So the answer is easy: Never play deep stacked on GGPoker
Even better, as gimmicky as it may be, GGPoker has rakeback.

How is 15bb cap different from no cap? Sure, you will pay like half a blind less rake if you stack off for 200bb, but how often do you really do that? Not to mention the rake difference of all the small and no rakeback...
You are literally spitting on GG (which to be fair is reasonable) but failing to get it to your thick head that stars is much worse. That's ok, do whatever you want... but you (coaches and moderators) are misleading your players.

 A cap is different from no cap in that once you are more than 200BB deep, you pay more rake than you would with the cap.
 When watching PLO players on stream, they play deep stacked quite a lot.
 You could have made your point without the insult. If you don't like PokerStars, don't play there.
 If I made an factual error, please point it out. No coaches and no moderators deliberately mislead.

3. They pay 1% fee of the equity. That's what I said. But I find it funny how you dodge all the concerns and focus on a mistake that I did not even make, masking it with buzz words like long-term. Seriously, guys, it's getting annoying.

What is getting annoying is that you continue to accuse PokerStars of criminal activity without evidence.
If you don't like PokerStars, don't play there
If you don't like cashout, don't use it.
"Long term" is not a buzzword, it is the reality of poker. PokerStars makes 1% off of any player who cashed out their equity.
If no-one every cashed out their equity, at the end each player would have their equity.
If one person cashes out his equity, and the other doesn't, in the end the player that doesn't will have his equity, the cowardly player will have 1% less.

I apologize for the rant, but you struck a nerve here. Mods put in a couple of hours each day voluntarily -- we don't get paid.
I do my best to provide factual information backed up with references to sources wherever possible.
I do my best to be fair to all poker rooms -- even those I don't like -- but I there is something I don't like about a room, I'll be specific about it, without trashing the room in general and more importantly without trashing the other PokerStrategy.com members who might like to play there.

Best regards,
VS

I play here because of the high hand turnover around 150 hands per hour per table for 3-6 player setting there is timebank but most players don't use it, I play 2 tables for 1 hour or so at a time then take a break and come back later, they have a lot of players so this format is very popular.

Do I accuse stars? Or am I pointing out valid concerns and some of you are just playing dumb, dodging valid points. What I accuse is poker strategy staff for defending stars while burrying other rooms. And your rant is absolutely fine even if you don't make a lot sense, and you either dodge the point or really misunderstand. In fact I welcome it. The more you rant, the more information we would have what it is.

1. That question wasn't about the rake. It was about your first
2. Playing 200bb deep quite often is absolutely true. But stacking off 200bb deep is not that common. And the money you save from that cap in a 400bb that happens rarely is too small and to make up for all the the small over-raked pots...

Why do I even bother with you, I don't care where you play. Play your 5 card draw on stars...
I was just trying to help out new people who ask what to play and point them in the right direction and you are just trying to defend a cancerous poker room, even if it's not rigged.

About the insult... I apologize about the thick head. The misleading part was spot on.

Peace.

EDIT: Ohhh, maybe I misunderstood the accuse part thrown towards me? Maybe you meant the "other reasons not to play on stars". Well, those are not accusations, those are actual facts.

@hardlife66
1. If your deposit method uses US and your preffered currency on stars is US, you are fine.
2. If you use EUR for example, change your preffered currency on stars to EUR before depositing!
Before withdrawing, you should exchange everything you want to withdraw to EUR.

If you withdraw US to EUR card/wallet or vise-versa then you will get charged around 2-3% from pokerstars. That is ON TOP of what the bank may or may not charge you for the transaction.

Finally, and I promise, I won't write anything anymore... Check this out what is written in the Run It Twice tab on Stars (because my country can't cash-out and still have the run it twice option even though you can't run it twice against anybody):

If run it twice is so exciting, why would they switch it with Cash-Out? Weren't they all about player experience?

Ah, the old cashout topic.

Lazza, I disagree that winning players should never use it as it is -EV. In some (actually most) cases it is overall +EV to use it even when it lowers the EV of that current hand. But I think there is somewhere a topic of it already.

To be precise, running it twice is slightly -EV but still people use it. It's just the about what is acceptable cost compared to profits.

4 card mayhem probably refers to PLO.

Originally posted by nsavov
Finally, and I promise, I won't write anything anymore... Check this out what is written in the Run It Twice tab on Stars (because my country can't cash-out and still have the run it twice option even though you can't run it twice against anybody):

If run it twice is so exciting, why would they switch it with Cash-Out? Weren't they all about player experience?

This argument got me convinced. They are difinitely cheating - maybe we should report this somewhere with our hard evidence?

Originally posted by Kyyberi
[...]

To be precise, running it twice is slightly -EV but still people use it. It's just the about what is acceptable cost compared to profits.

4 card mayhem probably refers to PLO.

You meant cash-out is slightly -EV? Why would run it twice be -EV?

RIT takes time, and that time is away from making money. Of course the amount is insanely small, but it is still -EV. If it would take longer to run, it would be more -EV. And in theory, there is a point where player would agree that it is too much -EV compared to the positive outcomes.

Same with cashout. Everyone sets the treshold themselves, when it's worth it. Now it is -1bb/100 if used constantly. What if it was -0,01bb/100, would you use it?

What if I say that there are a lot of players who lose overall more than 1bb/100 due to mental game errors, that could be prevented with cashout?

I saw a player in stream making multiple bad decisions due to mental game issues when running bad, and just few hours earlier he had said that using cashout is stupid and mental game is not an issue for him.

Mental game is an issue for everyone. Even Phil Galfond has mental game issues.