Is it possible to make an income playing cash games?

Originally posted by Kyyberi
RIT takes time, and that time is away from making money. Of course the amount is insanely small, but it is still -EV. If it would take longer to run, it would be more -EV. And in theory, there is a point where player would agree that it is too much -EV compared to the positive outcomes.

Well... but in terms of longterm you get the same spot twice and pay the rake only once, so this IMO makes it +EV vs lost time (specially on micros).

Imagine 2 players stacking preflop 100bb effective on nl10 PokerStars (4,5% rake, cap $1,5 for 6max). Both have 50% equity so on average they win their 100bb back minus the rake. If you run it once winner pays 9bb rake, you have to wait for another same spot and winner pays 9bb rake again - total 18bb of rake. If you run it twice you pay 9bb for 2 same spots

Same with cashout. Everyone sets the treshold themselves, when it's worth it. Now it is -1bb/100 if used constantly. What if it was -0,01bb/100, would you use it?

What if I say that there are a lot of players who lose overall more than 1bb/100 due to mental game errors, that could be prevented with cashout?

I saw a player in stream making multiple bad decisions due to mental game issues when running bad, and just few hours earlier he had said that using cashout is stupid and mental game is not an issue for him.

Mental game is an issue for everyone. Even Phil Galfond has mental game issues.

Sure everyone has mental issues - I myself use cash-out at all times and it's 0,65bb/100 for me. If / when I will be able to put way much more volume than I do I will stop using it so I do not pay extra rake

Originally posted by venatici
Sure everyone has mental issues - I myself use cash-out at all times and it's 0,65bb/100 for me. If / when I will be able to put way much more volume than I do I will stop using it so I do not pay extra rake

And there it is.

The only guy not associated with PokerStrategy who is absolutely convinced there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the Cash-Out feature uses it all the time.

This is too tilting.

If we don't consider time, RIT doesn't affect EV.

I would say that anyone can use what ever they like. I would just suggest that you know what you are using. Like if you use cashout, you understand what it means and how much it costs. And I think it's just plain stupid to blame someone if they choose to use rit, cashout, insurange, side bets, or do -EV plays intentionally. It's their choice.

Originally posted by Dandiiik
Vorpal said it all pretty much. You can definitely make some income but I would consider it a nice side income from a hobby that trains your brain Not your main income unless you beat it hard and make some serious money. Already on NL25 you can make quite decent money if you beat it long term at like 10bb/100 if you put in enough volume. Depends on you how well you will beat it, how much time you have for it and how many hands you can play a year. So do some scenarios and you will see. I have counted that realistically I could make 4500 dollars a year on NL25 with a winrate of 5bb/100 and 30k hands a month. On NL50 it would be 9k which would almost pay my mortgage but that is too far fetched for me now.

And dont be afraid to start on NL2 and I would recommend regular tables. The field is very soft now and you can get valuable reads on the fish very soon and exploit them. Whether you start a session with a 25% loss and climb you way up or not is absolutely not important. Just focus on your game.

Hi Dandiiik,
I leaked terribly on NL10 so back to lower stakes and sort out my strategy.
I have fixed the leaks kind of but I know where they are!

Summary 2 tables regular 6 ring

NL2 1000 hands $4.43 profit 22.15 bb/100
NL5 1000 hands $7.54 profit 37.70 bb/100

Now back to NL10

It seems this thread has moved on to cash out pros and cons I don't cash out my win rate is 80/20 btw.

Originally posted by nsavov

Originally posted by venatici
Sure everyone has mental issues - I myself use cash-out at all times and it's 0,65bb/100 for me. If / when I will be able to put way much more volume than I do I will stop using it so I do not pay extra rake

And there it is.

The only guy not associated with PokerStrategy who is absolutely convinced there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the Cash-Out feature uses it all the time.

This is too tilting.

Conspiracy theories about poker sites are around since they started.
It is easier to blame variance or bad play on a site being rigged from a mental perspective as you can assign blame on something external. Totally get that.

The thing is poker sites are audited. Code is reviewed. This is a regulated industry.

From experience if a player blames a site for being rigged his growth as a player will stagnate and you may as well quit poker. Why play on a site that takes your money? Your mind will now just work against you and you won't be able to improve your game anymore.

And if just one part of the site is rigged, how about when you loose AA vs AA pre-flop because villain got a one card flush? Or those many times he you have top set vs bottom set and he quads by the river? What about all those times where villain stacks of with mid or low pair and doesn't believe your bluff? How come I always get 3-bet pre-flop on my marginal hands but never my premium hands? Why do I always get coolered in MTTs when I am in the money?

Trust me your mind will go down this rabbit hole eventually unless you change your mindset.

Originally posted by hardlife66
Hi Dandiiik,
I leaked terribly on NL10 so back to lower stakes and sort out my strategy.
I have fixed the leaks kind of but I know where they are!

Summary 2 tables regular 6 ring

NL2 1000 hands $4.43 profit 22.15 bb/100
NL5 1000 hands $7.54 profit 37.70 bb/100

Now back to NL10

It seems this thread has moved on to cash out pros and cons I don't cash out my win rate is 80/20 btw.

What about starting your blog? This thread does not seem to be ideal to track your progress

The thing is poker sites are audited. Code is reviewed. This is a regulated industry.

Do you think that they cannot change the code after audit checks it? And when they check next time, again show them valid code.
About regulated industry - banks are regulated industry but still manage to lounder money for example. So that it is regulated industry does not mean that it is impoosible to do something illegal

Why play on a site that takes your money?

Because of hope that maybe they are not rigged

Originally posted by Dandiiik

Originally posted by hardlife66
Hi Dandiiik,
I leaked terribly on NL10 so back to lower stakes and sort out my strategy.
I have fixed the leaks kind of but I know where they are!

Summary 2 tables regular 6 ring

NL2 1000 hands $4.43 profit 22.15 bb/100
NL5 1000 hands $7.54 profit 37.70 bb/100

Now back to NL10

It seems this thread has moved on to cash out pros and cons I don't cash out my win rate is 80/20 btw.

What about starting your blog? This thread does not seem to be ideal to track your progress

Ok Dandiiik I've called it Making an income from 6 max cash

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

The thing is poker sites are audited. Code is reviewed. This is a regulated industry.

Do you think that they cannot change the code after audit checks it? And when they check next time, again show them valid code.
About regulated industry - banks are regulated industry but still manage to lounder money for example. So that it is regulated industry does not mean that it is impoosible to do something illegal
If a particular executable is audited and found to be in compliance with regulations, then it's SHA hash (or whatever security algorithm they use) is stored and the image is hashed and compared to this number every time it is launched.
Circumventing this procedure may be possible -- perhaps by altering the memory image -- but this would be easily detected, and equally easily prevented.

Cheers,
VS

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

The thing is poker sites are audited. Code is reviewed. This is a regulated industry.

Do you think that they cannot change the code after audit checks it? And when they check next time, again show them valid code.
About regulated industry - banks are regulated industry but still manage to lounder money for example. So that it is regulated industry does not mean that it is impoosible to do something illegal
If a particular executable is audited and found to be in compliance with regulations, then it's SHA hash (or whatever security algorithm they use) is stored and the image is hashed and compared to this number every time it is launched.
Circumventing this procedure may be possible -- perhaps by altering the memory image -- but this would be easily detected, and equally easily prevented.

Cheers,
VS

I dont know how this could be easily detected. Do regulators have access to the servers 24/7 so they can check what is running?

The problem is we dont know how this regulation works and thats why we think there can be cheating. They really should explain to all clients how it works, and how it is impossible to cheat, answer to any questions about why something would not work, then player could be more calm about this.

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

The thing is poker sites are audited. Code is reviewed. This is a regulated industry.

Do you think that they cannot change the code after audit checks it? And when they check next time, again show them valid code.
About regulated industry - banks are regulated industry but still manage to lounder money for example. So that it is regulated industry does not mean that it is impoosible to do something illegal

No they can't. It would be complex and the site may have downtime. It would be obvious.
Also audits are not announced usually when it comes to inspections. You would need the auditor to be in on this.
Also someone will whistleblow likely, you need many people to be quiet as it involves core code.

Comparison with banks is bit wrong. Banks laundering money was due to a few people and too little internal checks (which has been mostly corrected). Also this is just a small part of a banks total operation, while at a poker site changing a code like that is 100% of it's operation so it is much more difficult.

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
I dont know how this could be easily detected. Do regulators have access to the servers 24/7 so they can check what is running?

The problem is we dont know how this regulation works and thats why we think there can be cheating. They really should explain to all clients how it works, and how it is impossible to cheat, answer to any questions about why something would not work, then player could be more calm about this.

The auditing agency would have monitoring software running that would monitor the code region of memory.
If it was altered, the monitoring software would send an alert to the agency.

This is just one way detection could happen.

Of course, I'm just guessing, but for the major sites, I'm fairly convinced that something similar is in place.

Cheers,
VS

Originally posted by Dragar

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

The thing is poker sites are audited. Code is reviewed. This is a regulated industry.

Do you think that they cannot change the code after audit checks it? And when they check next time, again show them valid code.
About regulated industry - banks are regulated industry but still manage to lounder money for example. So that it is regulated industry does not mean that it is impoosible to do something illegal

No they can't. It would be complex and the site may have downtime. It would be obvious.
Also audits are not announced usually when it comes to inspections. You would need the auditor to be in on this.
Also someone will whistleblow likely, you need many people to be quiet as it involves core code.

Comparison with banks is bit wrong. Banks laundering money was due to a few people and too little internal checks (which has been mostly corrected). Also this is just a small part of a banks total operation, while at a poker site changing a code like that is 100% of it's operation so it is much more difficult.

Interesting . I know in my country how gambling audit works. Before they come to make audit, they tell in advance. They take the hash. They dont have access to servers who they are checking. I dont know how they check poker , but I know how they do with casino type games, where house has the edge. So really I believe at least in my country they do same with poker. At least they were working like this about 5 years ago. For me it looked just plain stupid and useless when I found out how they work

And the way they work, since they dont have access to server, you can quickly change code without practically any downtime, just need to change small part - random number generator

Hopefully those who check pokerstars are smarter.

Same old BS. Too funny to pass on this discussion...

@Dragar
Did you even read the discussion?
Losing your money to a player is a part of the game.
Losing your money to the house is simply not the same.
And about those audit stuff you are on about, trying to seem like you actually know what you are talking about - are you not familiar with the concept of corruption?

I think the key to making money is understanding your strengths and weaknesses. I read articles and watch videos. I also use PokerTracker 4 and find the leak tracker very helpful as well as recording notes about players and finding out with the HUD what sort of players I am up against. The biggest thing for me is concentration. If you want to make money, you really need to focus on your game all the time. Don't check emails, listen to the radio or let other things distract you.

A good trick is to tell yourself why you are going to do whatever your next move is. I am going to 3Bet because....

I have played for quite à while, not pro by any means but have tried pretty much everything out there. it comes down to how much time you have available to study and to play. In that order. Start with the basics, first define your opening ranges in each position, then your calling and 3 betting ranges (as a whole), etc. With just that, you should see a profit at micro stakes. Then play a lot, that is thousands of hands. Stay away from Zoom at first, People tend to be better there, and you have less info on your opponents. MTT is easy but has a lot of variance, and until you really dominante the strategy you cannot truly grasp what that entails.
Look for strategy on opening ranges and EV calculations, there is à lot out there that will help. And if you want a study partner I'm game, just let me know and we can figure out how to connect later.
Good luck out there¡
And dont forger it's a marathon and not a sprint.... Unless you are freaking isildur or linus

And dont forger it's a marathon and not a sprint.... Unless you are freaking isildur or linus

Well said!

Hi,

In my opinion the cash game is very remunerative.

My suggestion:
1: Do not speak about hundred and thousand hands, but many many thousand hands
2: Do not play zoom. Good table selection, knowing your opponent and thinking about your opponent is the best way
3: Cash out option helps keep you to be good (tiltless) mind condition and allows looser bankroll management
4: Initially play 1-2 tables simultaneusly
5: Analize your hands after the session (best and worst as well)

my statistics...

Hi Aminoid,
That is a very impressive graph!
What limits do you play?

Your advice is very sound.
If you play enough zoom, you soon get to know key players as well.
Also, zoom requires tighter ranges I think, and possibly more aggression.

Cheers,
VS

Hi VorpalF2F,

Thanks.
I started again a new bankroll build project after a few years of break.

The limits are mixed NL5-NL50 progressively on 9max tables. At the beginning without HUD.

You are right, tighter ranges. That is my problem with zoom. I prefer the looser style. (20/13/4 overall 9max)
I always try to adapt my ranges to my opponents (before and after of course). So it is sometimes looser or tighter depending on those sitting around me.
I really hope this way will be right for me.

Cheers,
Aminoid