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Poker in the end is luck.

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Bl1nd
Joined: 05.05.2020

Im almost giving up in my poker dream, in the end, you can improve as much as you want, you can study as much as you want, in the end we are all at the mercy of lady luck. We are all at the mercy of Variance distribution, variance doesnt come for everybody in the same way, some people can show you a graph of 100k hands where they had some downswings and upswings but mostly normal stuff. Other people like me have this hugemongous downswings that break your will and inevitably affect your game.

In the end the reality of it, is that in order to have a pro carreer in poker you need to have luck, what form of luck? That upswing + skills that takes you to the next level. There is no confidence without results, a human cant take 60 days doing whats supposed to be the best move, and end up losing that whole time

For me pro players were guys that apart from being smart, studying players they had a good start that gave them the confidence to afterwards deal with the massive downswings.

You look at a graph like this 100k variance simulator, and if u are at the botton u would probably give up by half of those 100k hands even more if u play something like MTTs. That graph was simulated using a winrate of 10 bb/100 wich only somebody that is CRUSHING can attain. You can be as good as you can, you can study, you can do whatever, if u are at the bottom of that graph u wont make it in poker... simple as that... U would be able to take bad stretches like that if u had a good stretches of hands where u ran above EV or near it

If u put a 4 bb/100 winrate wich is decent, u would see like half the lines actually losing money. Who can take that?


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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Hi Bl1nd,
You are quite correct, but only up to a point.

If we got dealt our hands, then did nothing at all with them to showdown, then over time, luck would be the entire story.

It is also not entirely a game of skill, or the same players would always win.
For my skeptic friends (and relatives) I describe it like so:
:diamond:  The luck evens out over the long term. There are only 1,326 different 2-card hands. In 1,326 hands you won't get 1 of each, but in 1,326,000 you're going to get within 50 of 1000 each.
:diamond:  The skill comes at various levels:
1: Recognizing the strength of your hand relative to your position
2: Recognizing the strength of your hand relative to the perceived ranges of the other players in the hand
3: Playing properly post-flop to minimize your losses and maximize your gains.
4: Knowing enough math to know when to get the hell out of Dodge

I've been watching easywithaces -- a PokerStars team member -- streaming.
It is astounding the number of times he hits his flops -- but then I started paying attention. He isn't just folding his junk and hoping for monster hands pre-flop. He routinely raises hands pre that can flop monsters, and frequently represents those monsters post-flop.

He clearly recognizes that his opponents believe he has what he represents.

Oh yeah -- he is also as lucky as stink <sigh>

Best of luck :gl:,
VS


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Bl1nd
Joined: 05.05.2020

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
Hi Bl1nd,
You are quite correct, but only up to a point.

If we got dealt our hands, then did nothing at all with them to showdown, then over time, luck would be the entire story.

It is also not entirely a game of skill, or the same players would always win.
For my skeptic friends (and relatives) I describe it like so:
:diamond:  The luck evens out over the long term. There are only 1,326 different 2-card hands. In 1,326 hands you won't get 1 of each, but in 1,326,000 you're going to get within 50 of 1000 each.
:diamond:  The skill comes at various levels:
1: Recognizing the strength of your hand relative to your position
2: Recognizing the strength of your hand relative to the perceived ranges of the other players in the hand
3: Playing properly post-flop to minimize your losses and maximize your gains.
4: Knowing enough math to know when to get the hell out of Dodge

I've been watching easywithaces -- a PokerStars team member -- streaming.
It is astounding the number of times he hits his flops -- but then I started paying attention. He isn't just folding his junk and hoping for monster hands pre-flop. He routinely raises hands pre that can flop monsters, and frequently represents those monsters post-flop.

He clearly recognizes that his opponents believe he has what he represents.

Oh yeah -- he is also as lucky as stink <sigh>

Best of luck :gl:,
VS

Of course the more you play the more variance balances out, but most ppl wont get that far, most ppl wont maintain their game plan for months in a huge downswing. Thats my point, this game is a lot about mentality, and sometimes that strong mentality comes from the fact that u have been winning, after that u can face the downswings.

Point is, sucess in this game depends a lot on how that variance hits you along your "carreer"


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arthurbentley
Joined: 12.10.2010

I ran breakeven at 6-max for 150k hands over a six month period. That was fun. Then after 250k hands played I was winning at 10bb/100. Another time I couldn't win at pokerstars for another 150k bad beat rollercoaster which nearly drove me insane. Again I managed to see the run good daylight but the OP is right. Even if you are a solid winner long term, you can experience horrendous downswings that make you want to give the game up. The lesson it taught me was that anyone who wants to make a living at poker they better have at least six- months living expenses in reserve, along with a suitable bankroll, and a solid mental game.

Many professional players receive sponsorship and staking deals. That's one way to deal with the variance. Others play part-time and work for a living.


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Bl1nd
Joined: 05.05.2020

Originally posted by arthurbentley
I ran breakeven at 6-max for 150k hands over a six month period. That was fun. Then after 250k hands played I was winning at 10bb/100. Another time I couldn't win at pokerstars for another 150k bad beat rollercoaster which nearly drove me insane. Again I managed to see the run good daylight but the OP is right. Even if you are a solid winner long term, you can experience horrendous downswings that make you want to give the game up. The lesson it taught me was that anyone who wants to make a living at poker they better have at least six- months living expenses in reserve, along with a suitable bankroll, and a solid mental game.

Many professional players receive sponsorship and staking deals. That's one way to deal with the variance. Others play part-time and work for a living.

But i bet before that breakeven run u had a good winning run wich gave you the confidence to face that


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Dragar
Joined: 09.09.2008

Originally posted by Bl1nd

Originally posted by arthurbentley
I ran breakeven at 6-max for 150k hands over a six month period. That was fun. Then after 250k hands played I was winning at 10bb/100. Another time I couldn't win at pokerstars for another 150k bad beat rollercoaster which nearly drove me insane. Again I managed to see the run good daylight but the OP is right. Even if you are a solid winner long term, you can experience horrendous downswings that make you want to give the game up. The lesson it taught me was that anyone who wants to make a living at poker they better have at least six- months living expenses in reserve, along with a suitable bankroll, and a solid mental game.

Many professional players receive sponsorship and staking deals. That's one way to deal with the variance. Others play part-time and work for a living.

But i bet before that breakeven run u had a good winning run wich gave you the confidence to face that

When I face 10+ BI downswing I take a break from poker for a couple of days. If I play then and it goes down again I just break again.
I need to reset. I also don't play pro and never will as my time is worth more in just about anything else than to grind micros or even things like Nl25-50, I just play because I like it and am usually not a losing player. I enjoy it so much because I have to think using IQ, which is the opposite to my job which is a lot of EQ (sales related stuff).

I think it is super important to set your goals right. Saying that you want to become some nose-bleed pro and starting to play at Nl5-10 is the same as saying you wanna become an NBA star or something, yes it can happen but it is super unlikely. It puts way to much pressure on you to perform well.

Just play with money you don't care about, learn and have fun. The rest takes care of itself.
I think most pros today did not start poker with a goal of becoming pro... it just happens.


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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Originally posted by Dragar
I think it is super important to set your goals right. Saying that you want to become some nose-bleed pro and starting to play at Nl5-10 is the same as saying you wanna become an NBA star or something, yes it can happen but it is super unlikely. It puts way to much pressure on you to perform well.

My grandson likes basketball.
He shoots hoops for several hours a day whenever the weather allows.

He may never make the NBA, but at his current level (he's 16) he is one of the best players in his region, if not in the province.

"A goal without a plan is just a wish"

Best of luck :gl:,
VS


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