Relatively New Player wondering why my bluff didn't work against an underpair?

Hi Janiii,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

Some players are like that.
I don't think that there is any particular tell

I'm not sure what your table image would be though.
Here you open A8s which is for me a fold pre from UTG

Let's see what others think though...

Cheers,
VS

I agree with Vorpal, A8s would not be an open from UTG. Maybe you he studied you and you waited to long raising making him having doubts about you? Did your bet ranges changed larger/smaller as usual?

If he is a good player he/she would know your range and have maybe 1 pair AQs, AQo, ATs, TT+ or else a bluff?

this is completely out of line on your part. i don't mind opening suited aces from UTG, but then you flop no equity whatsoever, and then proceed to use random betsizings throughout the hand.

your sizing story represents full house or quads. you can probably also play a hand like KK like this, since it's unlikely you're beaten on the river and you beat a hand like QT, but it's not seen often. and just how many people choose that sizing on the turn with a vulnerable hand...

villain's hand isn't theoretically the best to bluffcatch, since it has a heart (blocking your missed flush draws) and nines (blocking missed straight draws like 98s, J9s).

however, if you played this hand like this, that can only mean two things: either you're bluffing way too much, or you're choosing your bluff hands poorly.
if you're bluffing way too much, villain should call all his bluffcatchers (including this one).
if you're choosing your bluff hands poorly, then don't you have a "bluff frequency limit" before you start bluffing too much, so put more appropriate bluff hands in it - most of your lower draws and hands that block villain's expected calling range.

so - what was the villain thinking?
either he's already seen you spazzing out with bluffs you "shouldn't have" (such as this one), or just didn't believe that your bet sizings made enough sense (in other words, you don't have enough good hands in your range for this line), or both.
or maybe he just misclicked or tilted, who knows villain's call is also pretty out of line, but when i see your hand i don't hate his call.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

I'm not sure what your table image would be though.
Here you open A8s which is for me a fold pre from UTG

Originally posted by deuverman
Maybe he studied you and you waited too long with raising, making him doubt you? Did your bet ranges change larger/smaller than usual?

Originally posted by Tomaloc

so - what was the villain thinking?
either he's already seen you spazzing out with bluffs you "shouldn't have" (such as this one), or just didn't believe that your bet sizings made enough sense (in other words, you don't have enough good hands in your range for this line), or both.

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. I forgot to mention in that one incentive for me to pull this bluff was the fact that Villain had been at the table when I played a QQ hand with a similar R, B, B, X - line. Also with other monsters I had double- and tripple-barreled a lot. I aggree this play was completely inappropriate and very -EV, but I only stepped this far out of line because I thought my image was solid enough. I was very surprised to see villain call me on all three streets, without showing AQ or better. It just made me think, "Wow, was I that obvious??", and so I asked him in chat, but he remained silent...

Originally posted by Tomaloc
your sizing story represents full house or quads. you can probably also play a hand like KK like this, since it's unlikely you're beaten on the river and you beat a hand like QT, but it's not seen often. and just how many people choose that sizing on the turn with a vulnerable hand...

Question, you're saying KK would be a vulnerable hand on the turn, with some of the draws out there, and I would aggree. What would be a better bet size in this case?

Really appreciate you guys. Thanks again.

Jani

A8s is a pretty standard open utg as for villains call down it isn't great it blocks a couple of flush draws. But you have AK AJ KJs maybe KJo that villain can put you on so you do have some bluffs.That said calling down 3 barrels with third pair probably isn't to profitable.As others say though your getting out of line postflop with this combo you basically flopped zero equity. You say you had been studying villain for over 150 hands so villain has that same info on you and maybe your table image was splashy ?.

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
A8s is a pretty standard open utg as for villains call down it isn't great it blocks a couple of flush draws. But you have AK AJ KJs maybe KJo that villain can put you on so you do have some bluffs.That said calling down 3 barrels with third pair probably isn't to profitable.As others say though your getting out of line postflop with this combo you basically flopped zero equity. You say you had been studying villain for over 150 hands so villain has that same info on you and maybe your table image was splashy ?.

What is your range from UTG? I do not open A8s.. am I too tight?

Originally posted by deuverman

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
A8s is a pretty standard open utg as for villains call down it isn't great it blocks a couple of flush draws.

What is your range from UTG? I do not open A8s.. am I too tight?

It seems we have different styles happening.
I don't open A8s from UTG unless I KNOW that I'm dealing with tight (and hopefully passive) players.
It is dominated far too often.

Originally posted by deuverman

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
A8s is a pretty standard open utg as for villains call down it isn't great it blocks a couple of flush draws. But you have AK AJ KJs maybe KJo that villain can put you on so you do have some bluffs.That said calling down 3 barrels with third pair probably isn't to profitable.As others say though your getting out of line postflop with this combo you basically flopped zero equity. You say you had been studying villain for over 150 hands so villain has that same info on you and maybe your table image was splashy ?.

What is your range from UTG? I do not open A8s.. am I too tight?

Your not necessarily to tight if you have some beginner charts they are likely ok but most solver ranges would include all suited Axs at least the ones ive seen. If you have $50 to spare on ranges you can get them from bluff the spot preflop bible lite ranges.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi54a6Sp4PvAhXFYMAKHQo9BnYQFjAAegQIARAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bluffthespot.com%2Fstore&usg=AOvVaw2g9c0-B5G8lN7ec6K5Mp7H

Or poker snowie has some decent free open ranges if you click on start free web app you can see those

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi1iLSSqIPvAhWKZMAKHauDB_wQjBAwAXoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pokersnowie.com%2Fpreflop-advisor.html&usg=AOvVaw1zC0htI-LhhJ3P_y15iHKW

Not really sure what to advise on ranges don't go butchering your ranges on my advise though but maybe do some more research in to ranges.To begin with though your likely better off starting tighter and expanding your ranges as you go.

I was quite surprised at PokerSnowie's UTG open range.
Besides the absolute hand strength, the notion of "playability" needs to be taken into account.

PokerSnowie includes A8s but doesn't include 76s, whereas my own ranges are the opposite (or they should be -- I often find I'm playing hands that aren't in my "proper" range.
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

There is a lot of personal preference working here also.
I would rather open 76s than A8s -- but others are quite the opposite

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
I was quite surprised at PokerSnowie's UTG open range.
Besides the absolute hand strength, the notion of "playability" needs to be taken into account.

PokerSnowie includes A8s but doesn't include 76s, whereas my own ranges are the opposite (or they should be -- I often find I'm playing hands that aren't in my "proper" range.
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

There is a lot of personal preference working here also.
I would rather open 76s than A8s -- but others are quite the opposite

Agreed, I have the same thing as you Vorpal!

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
I was quite surprised at PokerSnowie's UTG open range.
Besides the absolute hand strength, the notion of "playability" needs to be taken into account.

PokerSnowie includes A8s but doesn't include 76s, whereas my own ranges are the opposite (or they should be -- I often find I'm playing hands that aren't in my "proper" range.
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

There is a lot of personal preference working here also.
I would rather open 76s than A8s -- but others are quite the opposite

I think solved ranges go for higher equity hands but it's not personal preference they are solved strategies for different stakes as far as im aware.Ranges are also solved for a specific open size and rake structure so there's lot's to consider when looking at a range chart. w34z3l has some ranges on pokerstrategy which are probably perfectly ok for the micros higher rake structure.Although they have pretty tight defending ranges from the blinds. And they also have cold call ranges from each position which a lot solved ranges dont have.But vs most micro stakes players i would think these ranges give you a pretty good edge still.

https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=309916&page=1

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

in fact, it is the other way round. imagine you do hit your flush OTT and face a lot of heat w your 76s. i would rather have the nuts. so with 76s you have a lot of reverse implied odds trouble, while you are stacking them left right and center w A8s.

playing an A high board is also easy. you will often go into XC mode to strengthen that part of your range and to keep the pot size in control.
when playing 76s you will also have to deal w situations, when you flop a pair, or do you really through them all away without a fight?

Originally posted by Pokamon

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

in fact, it is the other way round. imagine you do hit your flush OTT and face a lot of heat w your 76s. i would rather have the nuts. so with 76s you have a lot of reverse implied odds trouble, while you are stacking them left right and center w A8s.

playing an A high board is also easy. you will often go into XC mode to strengthen that part of your range and to keep the pot size in control.
when playing 76s you will also have to deal w situations, when you flop a pair, or do you really through them all away without a fight?

Agreed with a hand like 76s your going to hit a lot of draws which are easily dominated along with al lot of top pair weak kicker and second third pair hands.You not often hitting hands that dominate even with trips your not overly keen when the money starts going in with the kicker issues.

Originally posted by Pokamon

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

in fact, it is the other way round. imagine you do hit your flush OTT and face a lot of heat w your 76s. i would rather have the nuts. so with 76s you have a lot of reverse implied odds trouble, while you are stacking them left right and center w A8s.

playing an A high board is also easy. you will often go into XC mode to strengthen that part of your range and to keep the pot size in control.
when playing 76s you will also have to deal w situations, when you flop a pair, or do you really through them all away without a fight?

Hmmm nice study material here.. going too look if I can find more information about that.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
I was quite surprised at PokerSnowie's UTG open range.
Besides the absolute hand strength, the notion of "playability" needs to be taken into account.

PokerSnowie includes A8s but doesn't include 76s, whereas my own ranges are the opposite (or they should be -- I often find I'm playing hands that aren't in my "proper" range.
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

There is a lot of personal preference working here also.
I would rather open 76s than A8s -- but others are quite the opposite

Hi

Have you checked your 76s, 87s, 65s open's results from UTG with big sample?
I have seen it this year and I was shocked... I would open A8s from UTG, rather then 76s.

Imo small SC opens from UTG is not profitable on the micro limits.
On this type of tables, on average you will get at least one big fish per table and as Grindcore told in first episode of his thin red line series, against calling stations we have more EV in high card EQ hands, and we have smaller EV in semi bluff actions, because one calling station is call down too wide...
And the A8s have very nice nut fluss potential.

Originally posted by Laci24

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
I was quite surprised at PokerSnowie's UTG open range.
Besides the absolute hand strength, the notion of "playability" needs to be taken into account.

PokerSnowie includes A8s but doesn't include 76s, whereas my own ranges are the opposite (or they should be -- I often find I'm playing hands that aren't in my "proper" range.
76s is very easy to play - You either flop and hand that can continue, or you don't
A8s is tougher -- A-high flops mean your Ace is so often dominated.

There is a lot of personal preference working here also.
I would rather open 76s than A8s -- but others are quite the opposite

Hi

Have you checked your 76s, 87s, 65s open's results from UTG with big sample?
I have seen it this year and I was shocked... I would open A8s from UTG, rather then 76s.

Imo small SC opens from UTG is not profitable on the micro limits.
On this type of tables, on average you will get at least one big fish per table and as Grindcore told in first episode of his thin red line series, against calling stations we have more EV in high card EQ hands, and we have smaller EV in semi bluff actions, because one calling station is call down too wide...
And the A8s have very nice nut fluss potential.

That's pretty interesting, I play on the microstakes!
Where can I find the red line series from grind core?