Originally posted by Harrier88
The biggest minefield in 8-Game is still 2-7 TD, I believe. At least it has fewer draws than Razz, but possibly more things that can go wrong, as well as a bigger uncertainty factor and no ability to "play the board".
Yup.
The main reason for this is that in 2-7 the bet sizes are very large.
By the time the bubble is getting close, you're dangerously close to all in by the third draw.
Remember what I said about Razz?
PokerStars, $0.98 + $0.12 - Razz Limit (8-Game) - 1,500/3,000 (600 ante) - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat
Seat 6: 27,193 (9 bb)
Seat 1: 69,168 (23 bb)
Seat 2: 8,398 (3 bb)
Seat 3: 32,970 (11 bb)
Seat 4 (Hero): 43,574 (15 bb)
Seat 5: 84,570 (28 bb)
Third Street: (3,600) Hero is in Seat 4
Xx Xx Kx BI bring-in 900____BI folds
Xx Xx 5x UTG folds
Xx Xx 2x MP raises to 3,000____MP calls 3,000
Xx Xx Jx MP+1 folds
Xx Xx 6x CO folds
Ax 2x 3x Hero raises to 6,000
Fourth Street: (16,500) (2 players)
Xx Xx 2x Ax MP checks____MP calls 3,000
Ax 2x 3x 5x Hero bets 3,000
Fifth Street: (22,500) (2 players)
Xx Xx 2x Ax Qx MP checks____MP calls 6,000
Ax 2x 3x 5x Qx Hero bets 6,000
Sixth Street: (34,500) (2 players)
Xx Xx 2x Ax Qx 6x MP bets 6,000
Ax 2x 3x 5x Qx 3x Hero calls 6,000
Seventh Street: (46,500) (2 players)
Xx Xx 2x Ax Qx 6x Xx MP bets 6,000
Ax 2x 3x 5x Qx 3x 5x Hero folds
Total pot: 46,500
Seat 1 wins 46,500
How about some 7-Game next time?
Still, despite that hand, I had a very good run in the 8-Game that eventually finished 13th for $6.74, a good return. Badugi went pretty well too, had a decent cash with two bounties. Didn't play the HORSE tonight.
Can't really complain about the results this time. 
It's the end of the month, and I have given OpenOffice a workout (there actually have been some complications, including one outright crash) to crunch the numbers, even if they're not too pleasant.
Note that none of these stats take the new afternoon games into account yet.
There has been Badugi, 8-Game and HORSE this month, and none of them went great. Poker is still trailing behind Mahjong, but still slightly in profit - for the evening sessions, that is. The few afternoon games I have played so far would easily push it in the red.
This month showed some potential at times, but overall, we've made a loss.
Last week in particular has been a bit rough.
One positive thing is that Badugi has made a slight profit this month ($12.29, at an ROI of 10.74%), which, despite coming really close at one point, was not enough cover the losses from January, and obviously still far behind what I expect to get out of that game.
8-Game didn't go great, but at least made a slight profit. The ROI this month has been almost identical to Badugi at 10.76%, which, however, only yields $3.67 at these stakes.
Mahjong might be less interesting to you guys, but it does give me some things to talk about, so I'll deal with it in my next post.
Mahjong didn't go nearly as smoothly as last month, with many swings in both directions.
In the end, I scraped by with a slight profit, but it gets dwarfed by my January returns.
I've had a few theories why that might be. I assumed that I had played more games and longer sessions, which had hurt my focus and overall mental game. It felt like this month, I focused more on quantity rather than quality, and that it hurt my overall profit.
However, when I added a few additional stats to test these theories, they didn't quite bear out. In February, I played 129 games in total, compared to 103 in January. That might be an over 20% increase, but not nearly as much as I imagined. Also, I had played an average of 6.14 games per day (excluding off days where I didn't play at all) this month, which is lower than the 6.87 games per playing day in January. This only takes the total amount of games on any day into account, rather than how many were played in direct succession, but it still pretty much debunks my theory about longer sessions.
Aside from possibly having used worse table selection (unconfirmed), it looks like my worse performance was simply the result of variance, and quite likely tilt at times. And as for variance, I don't think that I got particularly unlucky this month, it's more likely that I instead just ran really well in January. Or possibly a combination of the two, where I ran relatively poorly in February, and relatively well in January. And once again I would like to stress that in my experience, Mahjong has a much higher luck factor than most versions of Poker.
The candlestick graphs illustrate the swingy games this month especially well. There have been two weeks recently which looked like they should yield great profit, but than stumbled and eventually even finished at a slight loss. Naturally, those swings were not easy to take.
But yet again, even though my goal of hitting $50 in profit and advancing to higher stakes was not reached, at least we still finished with a slight profit in the end.
Originally posted by adasko99
how do you track results sir? is that MS Excel?
Almost, it's OpenOffice. I have an elaborate spreadsheet that contains one input sheet where I manually put in my buy-ins and returns from each tournament. All the other stats are getting worked out automatically by a set of formulas across a total of 40 worksheets.
This includes those graphs and the data for them, though the graphs may still require some input to show the time period I want.
My Worst Stud Suckout Yet
In both mixed games and proper Stud tournaments, I've seen some pretty nasty suckouts so far, which come with the territory in such a variance-heavy game, but this one from tonight's 8-Game takes the cake.
We got what we were looking for when we hit our flush on 5th street, but our opponent also seems to be on a similar hand, especially given their betting behavior. An ace-high flush certainly has us in bad shape, but there should be plenty of weaker flushes willing to call as well, and maybe some other hands against which we are currently ahead too. But see for yourself:
PokerStars, $0.98 + $0.12 - 7 Card Stud Limit (8-Game) - 800/1,600 (320 ante) - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat
Seat 6: 23,291 (15 bb)
Seat 1: 7,109 (4 bb)
Seat 2: 18,374 (11 bb)
Seat 3: 14,182 (9 bb)
Seat 4: 20,316 (13 bb)
Seat 5 (Hero): 14,218 (9 bb)
Third Street: (1,920) Hero is in Seat 5
7♣ Q♣ 2♣ Hero bring-in 480____Hero calls 1,120
Xx Xx J♦ UTG folds
Xx Xx T♥ MP folds
Xx Xx 2♦ MP+1 folds
Xx Xx T♠ CO raises to 1,600
Xx Xx 5♦ BTN folds
Fourth Street: (5,120) (2 players)
7♣ Q♣ 2♣ K♣ Hero checks____Hero calls 1,600
Xx Xx T♠ 8♠ CO bets 1,600
Fifth Street: (8,320) (2 players)
7♣ Q♣ 2♣ K♣ 3♣ Hero checks____Hero raises to 6,400____Hero raises to 10,698 (all-in)
Xx Xx T♠ 8♠ 5♠ CO bets 3,200____CO raises to 9,600____CO calls 1,062 (all-in)
Sixth Street: (29,644) (2 players, 2 all-in)
8♦ J♠ T♠ 8♠ 5♠ 9♦ - Seat 3
7♣ Q♣ 2♣ K♣ 3♣ 4♦ - Seat 5 (Hero)
Seventh Street: (29,644) (2 players, 2 all-in)
8♦ J♠ T♠ 8♠ 5♠ 9♦ A♠ - Seat 3
7♣ Q♣ 2♣ K♣ 3♣ 4♦ 9♥ - Seat 5 (Hero)
Total pot: 29,644
Showdown:
Seat 5 (Hero) shows 7♣ Q♣ 2♣ K♣ 3♣ 4♦ 9♥ (a flush, King high)
Seat 3 shows 8♦ J♠ T♠ 8♠ 5♠ 9♦ A♠ (a flush, Ace high)
Seat 3 wins 29,644
It turns out that they did not have a flush, merely a flush draw with a smallish pair. And except for some backdoors for runner-runner boats and quads or even a possible backdoor straight flush, a A♠: was the only card to help my opponent. K♠: would not have been enough, as my own K-high flush had the better kicker (again, barring some Q♠: K♠: backdoor draws).
It was a one-outer, the first one I remember losing to in Stud. Brutal.
All of this happened ITM, at least, but we still had to settle for only a modest cash thanks to that hand, which did not come close to covering my buy-ins for the day.
Brutal is the word.
I lost twice today to people hitting boats drawing 3 to a pair in 5-Card Draw.
Incredible.
I still managed a profit though.
I also tried the reg-at-the-last-second trick in the playnow.com PLO8 tournament, and doubled up first hand, and got aces the next, but they didn't hold.
What is that??
I'll tell you what it is, it's my first ever scoop in a new poker format I learned last night, called "Pineapple Open Face Chinese Poker" (or OFC/P, for short).
I only played three rounds of two hands each for practice today, after having learned the rules and some very basic strategy. Naturally, I got my ass kicked after just sitting down, when even figuring out how to play was enough of a challenge. In the end, though, in no part thanks to that hand above, I even ended up with a tiny profit. 
So how is it played?
Well, let's start with basic Chinese Poker (or just "Chinese" for short). You get 13 cards, and you need to re-arrange them into three different hands: a top, middle and bottom hand. The middle and bottom are regular five card poker hands, the top one only contains three cards, and straights and flushes don't count in that one, so the best you can make is trips.
The rule: Your bottom hand must beat your middle hand, and your middle hand must beat your top hand. If that's not the case, the hand is fouled, and you automatically lose all three hands.
After placing their cards, players then compared their three hands against each other, top vs top, middle vs middle and bottom vs bottom. Winning each hand is worth one point, so if you win two of them, you get +2 points for your winning hands and -1 point for your losing hand, for a total of +1 point. "Scooping" by winning all three hands gives you 3 bonus points in addition to the 3 points you get for your winning hands anyway, for a total of +6 points.
In Open Face Chinese Poker (OFC for short), you don't get all 13 cards at once, but progressively build your hand up. It starts by getting dealt five cards face up, which you can then place as you like - also face up. Following that, each player gets a new card per turn, until the layup is complete. Note that not fouling can now be a bit of a challenge, because you never know what kinds of cards you will get later on.
Pineapple Open Face Chinese Poker (OFC/P) is the version I played. It works the same, except that you get three cards each turn instead of just one, and you place two of them and discard one, similar to how you would discard one of three cards in Pineapple Hold'em.
And finally, there is also 2-7 Pineapple Open Face Chinese Poker (OFC/P 2-7). In this one, the middle hand is a lowball hand following the 2-7 rules. The bottom hand still needs to beat the top hand, and the middle hand needs to be T-low (T9875) or better (i.e. lower) to qualify, otherwise the hand is fouled yet again.
There is loads to learn about those games, and I was kind of surprised at the amount of strategy material that is already to be found on them. Either way, it was very exciting to try a completely new poker format after all those other exotic games.
Originally posted by Primrose6789
I´m good with only 4 cards ♠_ugly:
The more the mehrrier 
Had to take an early 2nd bullet in the Badugi, which was frustrating considering my overall disappointing results in there so far. However, it's nothing a little whine equity can't fix. 
After complaining a bit to Prim and in Vorpal's stream, it didn't take long for that bullet to pick up some bounties and double-up a few times, and in the end, we final tabled and finished 6th for $21.65 including bounties.
8-Game was also on course for a very promising finish, but another brutal suckout in the Stud part against another big stack squashed our chances. We still mincashed, at least. Also, I tried a $2.20 regular speed PLO tournament to see how I'd do. I didn't do well. I won't be back.
What else is there? Just some more Chinese Poker, and this time, I decided to take the plunge and also try some 2-7 Pineapple Open Face Chinese Poker for the first time.
In the end, I lost a couple of chips, but it was a very interesting experience nonetheless, and I didn't think I did too badly. I do have two highlight hands, which involve an OFC rule that I haven't explained yet, called "Fantasyland".
Fantasyland is a bonus that you unlock with a qualifying hand. Usually, it's QQ+ or better in the top hand. In OFC/P 2-7, you can also unlock it with a perfect 75432 low in the middle hand, while the top hand requirement got bumped up to KK+ to compensate for that.
Once you're in Fantasyland, you get to play the next hand like in regular Chinese Poker, which means that you get all cards at once and can arrange them as you like. This is a massive advantage over your opponents, who still have to build their hands draw by draw like normally.
Which is also why this hand was so special. My opponent was in Fantasyland, and yet I ended up not only winning overall, but downright scooping. Can't say I have too much experience in this game, but I'm pretty sure that's a quite rare occurrence.
In the next hand, I was the one who had the luxury of Fantasyland, and it resulted in a straight flush for the bottom hand, a welcome sight in any form of poker. 
Notice that +15 next to my hand? That's another rule I didn't explain yet. Certain strong hands earn "royalties" just for completing them, which are additional points to be scored alongside the points you'd get for winning. This can make it worth the risk to go for some big hands. It's a little like how the payouts in casino games like Caribbean Stud or video poker work.
Also note that my opponent technically would have had me beat in both the top and middle hand, but didn't manage to complete their draw on the bottom hand, thus committing a foul by violating the rule of the bottom hand having to beat the top hand. This results in an automatic scoop for me.
Still not sure about the potential for profit in those games, and as I said, I finished at a loss overall in the end. They are enjoyable nonetheless, and feel a lot less stressful than standard versions of poker with betting and all.
Hand of the Day
This really would have been worthy of our Hand of the Day thread, but it would have surely confused the uninitiated.
Quads and a Full House, scooping against two opponents.
This one was also pretty cool, with two A-high flushes in one hand.
I'm starting to prefer this version over regular poker. Which is good, because I'm kind of losing enthusiasm for that one lately.
Nightmares in Fantasyland
Gotta love those dealer messages...
"Harrier is in Fantasyland"... might as well use that for my answering machine.
Still being a bit jaded with my usual tournaments, I've mostly stuck around in those new Open Faced Chinese games, while continuing the mahjong grind. And sure enough, the game is fun, and a breath of fresh air. Tonight, however, I discovered how brutal and tilting it can be at times. Having all those open cards makes it just all the more aggravating to watch your opponents hit their one-outers on the last draw. Not being able to hit your flush outs despite having a total of seventeen cards to choose from (thirteen in your hands, four additional ones to be discarded) is also frustrating experience.
Nothing could have prepared me for this hand in my OFC/P 2-7 game, though. Just coming out of a good hand, I had unlocked Fantasyland - that big bonus where you get the massive advantage of being able to draw all of your cards (even including a 14th bonus card to be discarded) at once and arranging them at your own leisure, while everyone else has to draw and pray that they hit what they're going for. And guess what happened - I was not able to get a single qualifying low hand out of my fourteen cards! (remember that you need to have T-lo or better to qualify)
To add insult to injury, the rest of the hand was excellent. I had trip Kings for the top, which is the second best possible top hand you can get. This alone would have earned royalties up the wazoo. I could have used the second ace for a full house at the bottom too, which also would have been extremely likely to win (notice the dead outs for better full houses), earning some nice additional royalties. But without a qualifying low hand, it was all for naught... and we were the ones who had to pay out big to our opponents.
We didn't even need a good low hand, we didn't need to beat our opponents in that one. We just needed anything!
It was a tough night all around, and I ended up being down quite a bit. Another "highlight" which I didn't screenshot included an otherwise very good hand by me in which an opponent, who was in Fantasyland, ended up getting a Royal Flush for the bottom hand, whose massive royalties easily ate up any other profits I got.
With the little experience I have, I guess it's not very surprising that I'm getting crushed. In fact, I'm possibly doing relatively well given the circumstances, but jumping in head first like this probably wasn't very wise to begin with. With the regular grind still on the backburner, I suppose I might as well take a look through all those strategy articles I found and see if I can turn my luck around with that newfound knowledge. Looks like this game has openings to be studied not unlike chess or backgammon...
But don't worry, the old mixed games grind will continue eventually. As well as the mixed drinks.
Originally posted by adasko99
i wish i could understand what all of that means
I want to play in FantasyLand![1]
It would make a great gimmick -- and poker sites are loaded with gimmicks nowadays.
Imagine -- if you win with <some stated hand> while on the button, you get the button again.
For example, if the game was PLO8, and you scoop both pots while on the button, you get it again.
[1] Sometimes I think I do when chasing gutshots
Originally posted by VorpalF2F
Imagine -- if you win with <some stated hand> while on the button, you get the button again.
For example, if the game was PLO8, and you scoop both pots while on the button, you get it again.
The main advantage of Fantasyland is of course not the button, but the fact that you get all of your cards at once, while your opponents are left guessing. Which makes it all the more annoying when you are the one who can't make your hand, despite being in Fantasyland with that big advantage.
Having the dealer repeat their dealer turn after winning a hand is a standard rule in mahjong, btw.
Wow that would be even better -- but I can see how it would be unworkable in other games.
It's crazy to think that I intended that Open Faced Chinese expedition to be a break from my usual grind. OFC is one of the most intense gambling games I remember participating in, and a lot more stressful than anything else I would usually be grinding. Both your opponent's hands and your own are unfolding piece by piece right before your eyes as you anxiously keep track of everyone's last remaining outs. The rules reward taking risks, but mercilessly punish you when they don't pay off. Big wins and crushing defeats can be just a hair apart.
Also, I'm still losing. Big time. Here's the deal: I'm playing on a relatively obscure bitcoin based site which uses "chips" as funds, each representing one millionth of a bitcoin, which should be around 5 cents each around this time. Not having dealt in any way with bitcoins before, I have built up my bankroll with freerolls instead of depositing, which was a painstaking endeavor since they each paid out only a couple of those chips, even a 1st place would usually earn only around 5 of them. Through a couple of one-off freeroll series which included some better prize pools, I eventually got my bankroll to around 275 chips.
By now, only 156 of those chips are left, so I have squandered almost half of my bankroll. OFC is played for points, which at my stakes represent a quarter of a chip each. Being down over 100 chips, you can tell that I have been decisively crushed so far overall.
Converting any of this into real money, it is true that those amounts are all tiny, but the point is: This bankroll took a lot of luck and effort to build up in the first place, and it can not be easily restored. Sure, I could get some bitcoins and make a nontrivial deposit, one that does allow me to ride out some swings, but first of all, I don't really have any plans for that and would first have to read up on some stuff to understand what I'm doing, and secondly, there is no real incentive for it if I'm doing that badly at those games.
I won't give up, but it's clear by now that there is a very real possibility that I will lose my bankroll, cutting my adventures short. It's an agonizing prospect that brings back many memories from the days when I was starting out with gambling in general, which naturally involved similarly crushing defeats, and many new deposits that had to be made. But should that happen, rather than mourning my failure and the loss of my bankroll, I already decided that I should look on the bright side. I learned a new game, one that may even be fun to play in a casual setting. I expanded my poker and gambling horizon. I took a shot to make something out of that otherwise idle bankroll, even if it didn't work out. And besides, it's always brave to step out of your comfort zone and try something new.
Regardless, it is not over yet! And wouldn't it be so much cooler if we ended up coming back from such a bad streak right in the beginning?
I'll leave you with today's highlight hand, straight from Fantasyland:
