Is GG poker a fraud? Terms of Service analysed, Rake Scheme analysed. Also 180k confiscated from Hig

Originally posted by Kyyberi
PVI can be as low as 0.1 at the moment. It means that when you rake $100, only $10 is counted towards Fish Buffet.

Not other major site uses that. If they say they give certain rakeback, they do. Stars has weird system where same chest can cost 10x more sometimes. But it's not based on whether you are winning or not

Your correct that no other major site or skin is using the system apart from GG atm they still all use weighted contributed system.It appears also that some of ipoker skins have also switched back to the weighted contributed method.

GG support about running banned apps

solvers and real time equity calcs are banned from being open whilst GG is running, if you do have something open initially you would get a warning asking you to close it.
Repeated warnings or ignoring warnings could result in further sanctions.

Originally posted by nsavov
7:16
I explicitly asked GGpoker if it is allowed to reset my stack at PLO Rush and Cash to 50bb back when the minimum buy-in was 50bb. They told me it's no problem.

Now, you can sit at Rush and Cash with 20bb and I played some super short stacked Omaha R&C as it is advantageous if you are going for their dumb point leaderboard where betting gives you the most points and shortstackers are generally doing the most betting. I will update you on whether I get banned for this.

It will be kind of interesting because there's a guy who's sitting with 100bb+ but is always min betting on every street and always wins the first place at PLO2 Leaderboard. I'm not saying he's cheating, it is just clever use of game mechanics in my eyes. But how can employing a viable strategy such as short-stacking considered cheating while exploiting their retarded point system is not only allowed but also REWARDED???

Just withdrew my money without any problems to NETELLER (the same method I used to deposit). It took less than 24 hours.
I guess rat-holing is allowed in Rush and Cash.

Hello,

i also made a pretty strange experience at GG Poker. Maybe some of you had such a coexistence as well. My hypothesis is, that GG Poker is targeting winning players. I even think they adjusting probalities for winning players in order to make sure, that the money cycles around for a longer time in there ecosystem. Maybe they lower your winning probabilities based on there PVI. It would be great if we can collect more than my story here in order to proof my hypothesis.

So, I worked my way up from NL25 up to NL200 within November. After having an awesome winning session on nl200 on the 19th of November my bankroll reached a significant amount of money and i wanted to cash out for the first time. Since i used the withdrawal function, i can not win anymore. I getting dealed insane setups or when i get it in, i am getting sucked out. Over the last one and a half weeks i got more and more curious. First i thought ok you had a nice upswing and now you are facing a downswing. Just normal. But it really feels strange as one loosing session is following the other. I even went down the limits again, but i can not even beat NL50 anymore, although it is almost impossible to loose at this super soft tables. Here is the graph from Pokercraft. Around 4000$ Rake has to be deducted from the winnings.

https://imgur.com/a/zlRkVCk

This is not to be supposed to be a crying story. I just wanted to share it with you and hopefully find other who made the same experience. This is the only thing i can do in order to help other poker players. I cashed out the rest of my bankroll now and will not play there anymore. Thank you for the video praios. This is really just fraud. I am really shocked that the names of Daniel Negreanu and others are involved as he seemed to be an honest and nice guy in the poker community.

The phenomenon that withdrawing from a poker site triggers a downswing is a common theme in poker forums.

I've always thought that once the withdrawal is made, players continue to play as they did with the large bankroll, but now they have a small one.

I'm pretty sure that that is incorrect, but I can't see that the phenomenon is anything other than some sort of mental game quirk.

Cheers,
VS

To be honest these statements and experiences at GG more then worrying. I have played at Spin and Gold and might be possible to have huge swings but I never seen such a run in my 10 years poker career. That's all I can say about GG so far.

The problem in saying site rigs rng to favor someone is that whom should it favor? If you run bad against regulars, what would the site gain with that rig?

In theory site would gain if they rigged games toi favor weaker (losing) players. I have witnessed this once, on a sit that forced run it twice and made so that the huge underdog won the second one almost always. Found out few posts in the internet about it where a former worker for that site confirmed it. Of course I don't know what was the truth, but to lose so many run it twices against 1 or 2 outers is VERY unprobable. Stopped playing there, and it wasn't any of the major sites with a major license.

I have run bad at GG network against everyone, and continued to run bad when depositing more. At least they didn't rig the games to my favor.

GG is the most growing network at the moment, and they are making a lot of money. And the bigger they get, the more money they will make. It would be insanely stupid to rig rng, as it would be a huge risk for little benefits. Site makes money by rake, and the more games are running the more rake they collect. And it looks to me that games are running very well, so the benefit from rigged rng would be quite minimal.

Of course the stupidity and greediness of humans will always surprise us, but I don't think GG has rigged rng. They do have lot's of other scams/grey areas in their business model though.

And the bottom line is, if you think the game is rigged but you keep playing it, it's your own fault.

"The problem in saying site rigs rng to favor someone is that whom should it favor?"

Imagine you want to create a new poker site that creates a lot of traffic and in the end profit. What would be a good recipe?

1. you need a good state of the art software
2. the software should have a high potential to make people addictive, so playing on this site should create more dopamin (e.g. cash drops on Rush&Cash Tables or BigHand Jackpot on Holdem Tables) than playing on other sites
3. you need some well know ambassadors for marketing purposes. In best case one with an honest image like Daniel Negreanu.
4. you need a lot of bad players on the table, because this is what regular players are dreaming of
5. new players should have success in the first weaks of playing on GG Poker, so they keep on playing, because they are sure they can beat the competition due to there experience at the beginng

So how to solve this:
- state of the art software, create high addiction and getting ambassadors are seperate topics.
- 3. and 4. can be solved by lowering winning chances of normal winning players to the advantage of new players and normal loosing players. So winning players become break even grinders as well as normal loosing players. By such an adjustment the money circulates for a longer time in the ecosystem of ggpoker and generates more rake. The normal winning players still thing they have a big edge as the tables are full of bad players and keep on grinding although they are running break even. The normal loosing players do not loose there money so fast anymore and can play for a longer time as well and keep on playing. Due to the experience of winning at the beginning, players in general tend to play a lot longer.

And yes i am not playing there anymore, cashed out everything. It is just too strange that you are loosing or grind break even as a normal reg, taking into account how soft the competition is.

So that you are loosing as well as a good player for a longer period now, is the 2nd curiosity that strengthen the hypothesis.

45k hands is low sample. therefore you simply experienced variance.

PVI model and false rakeback advertising makes enough money for gg, no need to rig the RNG

you simply had a rungood in the beginning and now face huge rake when running breakeven

If you want to have more bad players on the tables compared to other site. It is a nice option to rig the RNG.

Would be great if we find somebody who is winning big longterm on GG. This for example would weaken the hypothesis. For now we only have two players kyyberi and me, that run bad on GG.

Following this logic all poker sites follow the model described by schorio
Why do I say this?
Because every site I ever deposited on has resulted in I double my bankroll in the first few months, then settle down to a more gradual rise -- with downswings starting after that.

I believe that this is a symptom of a mental game problem on my part, along with normal variance.

To believe that a poker site would track each player's history individually, and rig the game for or against them is quite a stretch of imagination.
What do they do if they have two or more players at a table that all need to lose?

One other point needs to be mentioned:
You say that poker sites need to make their site "more addictive" to keep players coming back, and mention several promotions that accomplish this.
I agree that a lot of promos are overplaying the "attraction" to the point that they may push some players over the edge.
I particularly dislike volume-based promos, that encourage overplay.

Cheers,
VS

To be honest, I wouldn't be THAT surprised if they had rigged RNG. They are doing a lot of good things to promote the network and attract new players. But at the same time they are doing a lot of really shady stuff that you wouldn't expect an honest and growing site to do. And for some reason, they get away with it.

Straight forward scam on PLO insurances, and straight forward false advertising on rakeback. Those already go under "why would they do that, to risk their business?". But yet they do those. Also, site's history is full of accusations on stealing money when banning players etc. So to rig rng a little would just be another step in the line they have chosen.

I decided in advance to quit if my fish buffet octobus goes to low end. It was 60$ which is lowest with 10% probability. Trust is everything and realizing how shady PVI kept me grinding for octobus status makes me angry. Rigged? Idk, but severe impact on trust.

Insurance is a scam. https://twitter.com/Coach_Kyyberi/status/1373670380179763202

I had 77,5% equity on the turn, flush vs set (9 outs). I took full insurance to get the numbers from an actual hand, so no one can say I calculated it wrong.

Pot was 53,90 so my EV share was 41,80. That is what I would get in the long run, and what I would get with full insurance if the insurance was no-fee (like they had few years ago). Anything less than that is the fee. Now my question is, what would you think as a "fair" fee for insurance? Pokerstars cashout has 1% fee of your share, and people always tell that no one should use it as it's -EV. In this pot cashout fee would have been 40 cents.

GG Insurance fee was 11,30. That is 44bb's! Almost 30x more than Pokerstars cashout. I have been telling GG for couple of years that their PLO insurance odds and numbers are WAY off, but they have never replied to me.

also Jackot and Care is a SCAM!!

a fun player made a total spew a got 10k chips to jackpot. The same day i run couple time flush to FH, flush to higher flush, or KK to AA for 250bb and didnt get any chips to jackpot

here is a hand which fun player had

I guess that some people don't understand that if you don't like something why even bother with it. Even if GG Poker is a scam, there are a lot of different sites that can offer the same or better.

That's not actually true. For me, GG is the best place to play poker atm, due to my limitations. And by far.

Natural8 is rigged.

I literally had a same kinda feeling about the app, Once you are rolling for 2-3 days, then a bad beat starts tracking u like after almost every hand, be it a cash table or tourney, U r bound to get sucked out.

Hi dkarjan
I know it seems that way, but before you go accusing people of criminal activity, think it through.
I've been on PokerStrategy.com for over 10 years (holy crap! I just noticed that!) and in that time I have seen countless "it's rigged" posts.

Sometimes it is -- and when it is, people collect evidence, and submit it to the appropriate authorities.
Some poker rooms -- Ultimate Bet and Full Tilt for example -- are charged with offences and convicted.

If you have actual evidence, by all means present it to the proper authorities.
Until then, it only appear to others as whining.

While you're collecting the evidence, you might want to have a look at the poker variance calculator.
This tool shows the outcomes of several different simulations for a player with a winrate that you can set.

As you can see, the outcomes have a very wide range.
Check it out here: https://www.primedope.com/poker-variance-calculator/

All the best,
VS