Originally posted by Kyyberi
Should we shove AA pre?
multiway with rainbow AA I might flat this in PLO since we close the action and going to need a decent flop
in PLO8 though, I def would shove this pre
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Hi Kyyberi and all,
I'm trying to construct a simple HUD, nothing to complicated just a view important stats with which I can work...
I'm thing of something like this.
VPIP/PFR/3 Bet Preflop/ Fold to 3 Bet PreFlop/ C-Bet Flop/ Fold to C-Bet Flop/ Check fold Flop, Check Fold Turn...
Would you say that this stats are good for PLO or do I better use something else?
Another question which I have is, I see that on the Micros many people limp in early, middle and late positions. I would think that's this villains are not good right? Or is it ok to limp in PLO?
Thanks
Limping is not good. Don't limp.
@Eduard: my approach to HUD is to use it mainly to categorize players. I divide them into 4 main categories, which are Calling stations, nits, aggros and regs. I use mostly VPIP/PFR/3bet for that. Everything else is based on needs.
Like check-fold turn, if that number is 33, how do you change your default strategy? You don't barrel turns that much? You barrel more turn+river? What if sample size for that is 1 out of 3? 4 out of 12? To get a decent sample size for that specific stat, you need to play a lot of hands with the opponent.
That stat is not useful in a vacuum, it's always related to flop and river stats. Check-fold turn 33 is a VERY different thing if his flop call is 90 or 25. I am not a huge fan of those check-X stats. You could too easily start to just look at that stat, and then make bad plays. Checking on JT5ss is very different than checking on 773r as preflop raiser. If opponent doesn't have balanced checking strategy, you should pick it up and make notes about it. Or check the stat on pop-out once you have a lot of hands with the opponent.
Out of those stats in your list, fold to 3bet is useless. Your 3bet game shouldn't really chance at micros whether the stat is 5, 10 or 20.
And as the sample size is often quite small, different flop situations affect it a lot. Stat itself doesn't take into account what the flop texture is, what was opponent's sizing, was it multiway or not etc.
Another thing to understand is that HUD is never complete. It's a constant process. You change as a player, so the needs change too. Long way to get a perfect HUD is to start with really simple, where every stat is usefull and you know how to use it. Then you should check have you used all the stats in your HUD on constant basis. Every number on your HUD is a distraction. If you have a stat that you use once a session, you could check it from the pop-out. No need to be in the HUD. And on the other side, if you check a stat from pop-out multiple times in a session, maybe it's worth to put it in to the HUD.
Two hands from today, and they are NOT bad beats! (although my session was a losing one, despite making quite good EV profits)
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(lol, my notes are visible there!)
We are almost 200bb deep. There are limpers and SB opens, I call from BB and we go to flop 4way. SB with Aces bets smallish, I call and another player calls. Turn is pretty nice, SB checks and I bet big. SB calls, and I shove river. He calls. I was sure he has a straight or smaller boat, or at least AA3x. But dry Aces, I have no idea if he even thought about my hand when we start to put money in on that turn. Quess he wasn't a believer. Or just fell in love with AA. My pick is the later one.
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This was the hardest hand in the session. Opponent is a new player in the pool, but was pretty wacko. Had notes that he was doing pot donks on the river with bluffs in situations where it just doesn't make any sense. Like on straight turn I bet big, and he donks blank river with a missed draw.
In this hand, I open, he calls and third player calls. On 3way flop I cbet, and he calls, third player folds. On the turn I bet again, and he minraises. And I really didn't know what to do. We were over 300bb deep, and shoving top-btm 2 pairs without any additional equity didn't sound that good. But folding 2 pairs vs wacko wasn't sounding good either. Problem on calling was that 80% of rivers would suck and he most likely bets the river anyway. If stacks were shallower, I would just get it in. Here we have so much behind that I can't do much else than call. River was a nasty one as expected. And he bets big, pretty fast. And I was flipping on whether to fold or call. I have T blocker which helps a little, and unblocking smaller straight draws. But he is that wacko that he could bet river with a set or J9 too. Doesn't make sense but he had done it. I almost folded, but then trusted my intuition and called.
Now looking that the spot, I would like to check-call turn instead of bloating the pot. Normally that deuce is such a blank that I shouldn't face a raise often. But versus this player, bloating the pot with naked weak 2pairs without additional equity makes life just nightmare. Check-call turn, and most likely just check-call any river is best line.
Two hands from today:
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I bet flop, he calls. I bet turn, he calls. I bet river, he check-jams. And I still don't understand why.
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UTG opens, MP 3bets and I cold 4bet. BB cold calls. With TT32r. Hitting top set when SPR is 1. It's ok if he is just gambling with any4, but if not I just don't understand why.
Overall today was a weird day at the tables. Lots of players timing out, lots of call happy players going bananas with preflop 3bets, and lots of regs stacking off way too easily way too deep. I would get it if my imago was maniac, but it shouldn't be. Also a lot of bad slow playing from both call happies and regs. Like 3way flopping top set on Q65ss, checking back 3way flop and just calling nuts on the turn on blank. And on the pot was me and passive player. Why?
Got big dose of being outflopped in 3bet pots, out drawn in 3bet pots and out 1-outered in 3bet pots. But on the other side won some big 400bb pots when regs overplayed their hands pretty badly. Like 200bb deep, I 3bet and bet small on monotone flop. Opponent raises, I make a small raise and they shove. I have nuts, he had 6 high flush, drawing dead. On another hand, single raised pot and I call flop on Q42. Turn is A, opponent pots, I raise and he shoves, we are 200bb deep and pretty high SPR. He had AA, I had nuts. Board was rainbow. Not as horrible as the previous one, as I could have AKQJ or AQQ type of hands. If turn had opened a flush draw, I would understand it a little bit better.
I just played with probably one of the most deuchebag players I have met in years. At PartyPoker PLO player named LetMeInCantWin started to spam me with throwables, And I mean constant spam on every single hand. Whether he was involved or not, as long as I was involved in a hand. At the same time he started to pot every single hand preflop, and minbet every flop and turn. That sounds like a profitable opponent, but my poker client just froze constantly. I tried to play for a while, until I realized that it was the spamming that caused my client to froze and I timed out on hands. Few times with nuts on the turn.
I reported him to PartyPoker, but I would bet significant amount of money that the response is "our logs show that you have timed out in the hands, so the problem is in your internet". At least I hope they fix the thing and limit throwables, if it's that easy to exploit without any risks.
Originally posted by Kyyberi
I just played with probably one of the most deuchebag players I have met in years. At PartyPoker PLO player named LetMeInCantWin started to spam me with throwables, And I mean constant spam on every single hand. Whether he was involved or not, as long as I was involved in a hand. At the same time he started to pot every single hand preflop, and minbet every flop and turn. That sounds like a profitable opponent, but my poker client just froze constantly. I tried to play for a while, until I realized that it was the spamming that caused my client to froze and I timed out on hands. Few times with nuts on the turn.I reported him to PartyPoker, but I would bet significant amount of money that the response is "our logs show that you have timed out in the hands, so the problem is in your internet". At least I hope they fix the thing and limit throwables, if it's that easy to exploit without any risks.
aah this is crazy when things like this happen... I'm sure the guy is very proud of him...
Originally posted by Kyyberi
I just played with probably one of the most deuchebag players I have met in years. At PartyPoker PLO player named LetMeInCantWin started to spam me with throwables, And I mean constant spam on every single hand. Whether he was involved or not, as long as I was involved in a hand. At the same time he started to pot every single hand preflop, and minbet every flop and turn. That sounds like a profitable opponent, but my poker client just froze constantly. I tried to play for a while, until I realized that it was the spamming that caused my client to froze and I timed out on hands. Few times with nuts on the turn.I reported him to PartyPoker, but I would bet significant amount of money that the response is "our logs show that you have timed out in the hands, so the problem is in your internet". At least I hope they fix the thing and limit throwables, if it's that easy to exploit without any risks.
Would any of the options available to switch off animations prevent this happening? I thought all these throwable gimmicks were options that can be switched off somehow.
Found it in the settings, those can be turned off. And kudos to Party support, they gave me one buyin in T$ to compensate losses.
Had a decent session, and then for the last session of the week couple wackos hit the tables. One was calling flop and turn with almost anything. Flop calling range was literally 100%, and turn was pair or a gutshot or better. Other one was shoving any hit on the flop, no matter how deep. Crash, Boom, Bang and 15 buyins down in 15 minutes. Got money in with better hand quite often, and few times in a flip. Nothing held, nothing hit. Same old shit, but it's getting ridiculous.
Originally posted by Kyyberi
Found it in the settings, those can be turned off. And kudos to Party support, they gave me one buyin in T$ to compensate losses.Had a decent session, and then for the last session of the week couple wackos hit the tables. One was calling flop and turn with almost anything. Flop calling range was literally 100%, and turn was pair or a gutshot or better. Other one was shoving any hit on the flop, no matter how deep. Crash, Boom, Bang and 15 buyins down in 15 minutes. Got money in with better hand quite often, and few times in a flip. Nothing held, nothing hit. Same old shit, but it's getting ridiculous.
Oh many sorry to read that, I'm very new to PLO and the swing can be really Heavy.. How do you deal with that?
Break, rinse and repeat.
Have been break-evenish for some time, although I haven't played much this week. Last session of the week was nice one until one VERY good customer (passive calling station) started to bink rivers back-to back-to back-to back. Profitable session turned into non-profitable. Hard to think that life is just one long session.
One very interesting hand from session:
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Pre I open, opp calls. Flop goes check-check. Nothing interesting here.
Turn is J (giving me a set), opponent bet 2/3, I raise.
I have played quite a bit with that opponent, and he seems to be playing blockers very aggressively while sometimes slow playing really strong hands, and even slow playing for too long imo. I am not sure if his aggression is solely with blockers and semibluffs, but at least it's not balanced at all. With this in mind, I think his turn betting range is either 98 or a hand with those blockers+some equity. On the other hand, my raise doesn't really rep 98, so when opponent re-raises me it shouldn't be a surprise . We were 150bb deep in the hand, and at this point (when he had re-raised me on the turn) I started to think more.
Huge mistake, should have thought my line before raising the turn. I think I have three options in this hand.
One is to just call turn, and call any non-club river.
Second is to shove over his re-raise, and expect him to call with quite a lot of hands. This might seem weird, but remember that he has straight or straight blockers always, and it's weighted towards blockers a bit more. I shouldn't have 98 with this line, so my shove looks like a blocker bluff or semibluff. And he has been hero calling vs. me earlier too.
Third option is to call raise and hope for a blank or pairing river.
I opted for third option, I called his raise. River was Q and he shoved for almost a pot. And I tanked, because I hadn't thinked enough before making my turn raise. I wasn't sure what to do. River shove outrules 98, so the question is can he have AK? AKQ doesn't really fit his turn re-raise range, as he wouldn't probably re-raise with just one 8 or 9 (AKQ9). He could have AK88/AK99. I chose to call, as the range he is repping on the river seems to be pretty thin. Only concern was a hand like K99 which I don't block at all (I block AK at least a little).
Now when looking the hand, I would like turn shove more. I am at the top of my made hands range after flop check, and that check would widen his stackoff range a lot. And then I wouldn't have to worry about river cards. Especially when I have a read, that his re-raise is weighted towards non-98 hands.
Today was one of those sessions, where I almost got a headache for watching opponents play. Ended up in marginal profit (while being down almost 10 buyins at one point) though.
Few hands that were worth capturing imo. Disclaimer, no strategical value, pure entertainment.
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You know these spots, you have the nuts and opponent just calls turn. Leaving 1/30 behind. Although we are of course stacking off on any river, and it doesn't affect long term results, these are not the spots we want to be in. ♦
River was a blank and he folded.
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Similar spot. Flopping nuts and betting 3way, turn opens another flush draw and potting, one opponent calls. Feels like Neo in Matrix, trying to dodge the world.
River was a blank, opponent folded.
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Only hand with remote strategical value. 3bet pot, opponent bet small on the flop. Turn goes check-check. River I check and he pots. That is a weird sizing imo. The way I have played the hand, I rarely have a straight as I would most likely bet those on the river. Once I check, I am check-calling or check-folding. My check-call range is 2 pairs, hard to see much more in it (readless). Opponent has 2 pairs and AA, and he pots. Is that pot for value or a bluff? I would most likely c-raise 2 pairs on the flop, and he blocks 8 and 5. If that bet is a bluff, he is targeting mostly KJ/K7. Of course if I fold those hands, and I almost never have anything stronger, it might seem that the bet is good.
But here's the thing:
-If it's a valuebet, what worse hands would call? None.
-If it's a bluff, what better hands would fold? Maybe average player folds KJ/K7, although I don't think so. So if we say that sometimes they fold, sometimes they don't, are better hands folding often enough to make the risk-reward ratio profitable?
I think that opponent thought I don't have a straight and just valuepotted 2 pairs. Which is horrible strategy, if true.
My guess is that he recognized 85 to have little actual showdown value and tried to bluff.
Might be that, but I don't think it's a very good bluff as it targets very specific and small number of hand from my range. And that range is not always folding.
I think it shows that in either case opponent didn't really think about my range.
Originally posted by ghaleon
My guess is that he recognized 85 to have little actual showdown value and tried to bluff.
Originally posted by Kyyberi
Might be that, but I don't think it's a very good bluff as it targets very specific and small number of hand from my range. And that range is not always folding.I think it shows that in either case opponent didn't really think about my range.
to add my fishsauce
not sure about these stakes, but i'd also assume more of a bluff based on him "smelling" weakness with the backup of the weak twopair making at least sets less likely. on plo5 and plo2 rush this puts me in a tricky spot again and again and am not sure if my responses are good and probably i am making the same mistake aswell from viallains perspektive - the story being something like, opponent could read me as being tricky not betting the straight and also wanting to avoid a difficult river(flush) so i can pot here and take it often enough... it showcases a scenario i definetly need to work on because just from memory in your shoes i am sometimes folding and sometimes calling. calling when i know villain is making these plays, if i dont have a read i probably overfold. and even so i would likely not pot i may do something similar as villain here in the 30-65% pot range. would you consider this as equally bad or do i indeed take it often enough here that it could be justified?
What a day. Played for three hours, which is quite a lot as I am having covid atm. Ended up break even (well, +$7!!!) which seems funny as I was down quite few buyins for the whole day. Had multiple bad beats, including losign both runs in RIT vs 2 outer. One nut boat vs quads and one nut flush vs straight flush. And a lot of set vs fd allins that I lost. But the day was not full of bad beats, had some good moments too (otherwise it would not have ended in break even).
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First good beat of the day, 200bb deep AA vs AA preflop allin. Of course the board gave some drama for us both.
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Reg decided to go bananas. 3bets preflop, and decided to go 3 barrels here. This is something I see every day, people 3betting REALLY weird hands. Of course you can say that some people like to gamble. But if we are talking about players who play multiple hours a day, it seems really strange that they don't spend at least portion of that time to think about preflop strategy. Might be issues in mental game too or just gambling addiction, but I have seen SOOOOO many really bad 3bets from multiple players that it's just weird.
In this hand, once I call the turn I think the river shove for opponent is way too optimistic. Clearly I am either having AA beat or not giving credit for him to have AA and I am calling the river. But if someone 3bets that hand, I think there's no point to even think about his postflop strategy.
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Probably the biggest WTF? moment of today. BTN opens, I call, flop goes checked and I pot turn. Opponent calls, and bets river when I check. He has a gutshot on the turn, and calling a pot sized bet on ds board is not that unexpected. Seen people do that all the time. And then on the river realizing that Q high probably is not enough he decided to bluff. Easy to find the logic behind his actions, but still QT95 without a fd came as surprise. 
Funny thing is that if he is good enough to think about my hand and realizing he could bluff the river, why in the hell he calls the turn with that garbage? And for bluffing situation, the only boat he could credibly rep is 77.
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Sickest hold of the day, so it wasn't all bad beats. We were all about 135bb deep, and money went in preflop. I open, SB calls, BB 3bets and I 4bet. SB calls my 4bet (LOL!!!) and BB goes for 5bet. And once again, board created some drama and I was quite sure the rived would be a diamond or Q.
Nice to see that those J992 guys don't always win. Lost quite few preflop allins to those players lately.
Hey Kyyberi, love the hands you post - your thought processes reveal so many things i do wrong. it will still take me a bunch of time to internalize a lot of it, but thanks a lot for the great work, especially while having covid! Hope you get well soon !
Quick reminder why Ace blocker bluffs are usually not a good plan at small stakes.
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Multiway pot, so I decided to pot flop, turn and river. Got zero respect for flush, as opponent snap called every street.
Originally posted by Kyyberi
Quick reminder why Ace blocker bluffs are usually not a good plan at small stakes.Spoiler
Multiway pot, so I decided to pot flop, turn and river. Got zero respect for flush, as opponent snap called every street.
the luls are real on this one - very straight forward as i now am starting to understand is just the way to go ^^