KJ in CO with nut flush draw OTF in 3Bet pot multiway

I would still cbet this, this is the flop that we would want to cbet on, after the 3bet preflop.

Indeed. You can easy cbet 1/3 pot as semi bluff against 2 villains and re-evaluete on further action.
Now you need to call at ;east 1 street with the nut flush draw. Off course it will be tough to get value if you hit you're draw.

Cheers,
SDK1987

OK, when MP folded, I raised, and BTN folded.
I thought here that the CBet could very easily be attacked, then I'm calling with a mere draw.
I'd rather raise and be called, than have to call a raise.

Does that make any sense?

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
OK, when MP folded, I raised, and BTN folded.
I thought here that the CBet could very easily be attacked, then I'm calling with a mere draw.
I'd rather raise and be called, than have to call a raise.

Does that make any sense?

Interesting line but I still think cbet is superior.

The difference between KQo and KJo is very big...KJo vs MP is very loose, I know it is a bluff, but that means you will call a lot vs MP from CO, or 3bet a lot. Doesn't matter , it is bad...Only the maniacs do that...this is not BU vs CO, but CO vs MP...Imo big Cbet OTF, 70% let's say..As played, just call...

Volpar,
lets start beginning.

3bet pre- I 3bet KJ and Kq alot vs MP- as a bluff and value depending on villain opening range. If they open wide from MP then it is value, if they open 18% from MP- then its a bluff. and really tight villains I fold.

as for the flop- you can go either way- you can bet out, even tho it is a little tricky as you are the meat in the middle of the sandwich. But, what i like more then leading is once BTN bets, c/r that guy. you could also do this if you are holding a Q of spade instead of the K. but is better with the king. This can also work on the turn as well and just call flop. On every part of the game tree, everyone doesn't check raise enough, If you had K3 of spade would you raise? or call? Also you have the nut draw and spade blocker..

If this makes some sense, I will try to show some hands that i did in month blog, as i am pretty sure i did this a few times this month. As long as i can find the hands.

Why you guys use KJo for 3bet vs MP, I don't want to offend someone, I really want to know. Why you prefer this hand? What is your calling range here then? I assume you have a calling range here, because this hand for 3bet...Or you don't know...Ok, let's talk about this. Because I am a little confused..Because I never heard for 3bet with KJo from the CO...From reg..Seriously...I am thinking now, I am trying to remember similar thing...But nah...I never saw or heard ..Why KJo? Because of the blockers? KQo is very different animal...I mean also the blocking effect...How KJo is better than some Ax? Which you fold here ..Or call maybe...Please, explain...

I don’t do much calling of anything- in any position unless I know villain and tendency. I 3bet every hand I play against villain I have little information about.

So to look at a different angle, if you don’t 3 bet this hand in CO. What do you 3 bet? For value and as bluffs? All suited broadways for value, all 99-AA for value. Maybe you also value bet 109, 98, j10 suited. Now what becomes your bluffs? A2suited to A5suited as a bluff.. what else, to stay. Balance you need a 2:1 about preflop- do you bluff k8 suited k9 suited. But you don’t bluff kj offsuit. You are going to need enough bluffs so when you 3bet premiums you get action and can get some money in.. if you only 3bet 4-5% of the time, you are going to get over exploited when you get into high stakes games and better competition.

A lot of it comes down to how you build all your ranges.

IMO of course.

What do you mean "what you 3bet for value and as bluff"? This is not the blinds, mate...Oh, I see now "broadways for value"...its not for value, neither as bluff, this is the CO...How JTs can be "for value"? You said " I 3bet every hand, if I have some info". Ok then, but why KJo? KJo is the very bottom of 20%..That means 20% 3bet or what? Really? With some info...And you use a balance, 2:1, value to bluffs maybe, how 20 range will be 2:1 value:bluff CO vs MP!?

You are going to need enough bluffs so when you 3bet premiums you get action and can get some money in.. if you only 3bet 4-5% of the time, you are going to get over exploited when you get into high stakes games and better competition.

What? Ok, when I get into high stakes games. But what about now? Do you play those limits, NL10, NL25...Because I don't think someone even see something. Counting my combos for bluff and value CO vs MP...Ok, ok, lets's say there are some guys..How many? 2%? Or 3%? Why I should even think about this? I don't care...if he see something, I also will see "something", I am not blind.
thanks for the explanation...

Mate, I don't know what this guys will see about me, but if you 3bet KJo as part of linear range CO vs MP, they will see you pretty "fast" and clear...

you know what, I wrote a response and posted it. then after decide to change it.

I was going to write, about results but i already have that in my blog, I can just say i try to give my thought process on why i do the things I do, to try and help, people out. If you dont want to read what I write, that is fine and your choice. @NonameHypo I wish you the best of luck at whatever stakes you are playing, and best of luck to you mate.

Listen, mate, I do realize you not using 20% 3bet CO vs MP. You just can't explain why this stupid hand is there. In you range. I mean there is a lot of better hands. Than KJo..And you fold with those hands. I guess...I just can't understand why you like KJo..In this spot...How KJo is better than 98s, A6s, ATo!? But OK, thanks for the explanation, the attempt at least...Its not a big deal, but I think it is a leak. Small one ofc...There are better hands for this action. Imo...No bad feelings. GL...

Your funny mate.. your brand new account. :f_thumbsup::f_tongue::f_tongue:

Originally posted by NoNameHypo
The difference between KQo and KJo is very big...KJo vs MP is very loose, I know it is a bluff, but that means you will call a lot vs MP from CO, or 3bet a lot. Doesn't matter , it is bad...Only the maniacs do that...this is not BU vs CO, but CO vs MP...Imo big Cbet OTF, 70% let's say..As played, just call...

This a chart from a coaching series now several years old (pre GTO), but this is when I was playing a lot of NL 10 and NL 25.

The blue hands are 3Bet bluffs — so 3Bet/fold to 4Bet.
The yellow is flat call.
AA and KK are 3Bet/Call or 3Bet/Raise
AKo and QQ are 3Bet/Raise

I don't play exactly like this any more, I'm flatting less, since this chart was written in the days of standard 3x open raises, and the modern style of 2.5 or even 2x open raises means that if you flat CO vs MP then you'll get squeezed far too often.

The coach that came up with these strategies was far from being a maniac.

Actually you should flat less against bigger sizing for two reasons:
1. Worse odds
2. Hands that squeeze are also good as calls and bigger pot = bigger incentive to play aggressive. So you will get squeezed more when open was 3bb than if it was 2bb.

Anyway now modern approach to game would just cut from that range a lot of suited connectors, lower pairs and KJo and pure 3bet everything else.

Interesting debate going on here. Do I use KJo on BTN vs CO open for 3bet bluff? I don't think so. I can't recall much of it. Why don't I do it? I really don't know. I know I do it with a lot of suited junks though.

I think it's probably that KJo is so in between hand that I'm gonna be confused postflop.

@Vorpal, this makes sense...I think the reason for using KJo for 3bet bluff is because the V can call with suited broadways, which is dominated..This is the only reason actually. Yes, the blocking effect also, but KJo have kinda poor blocking effect, compared to ATo for example...
KQo is very different, stronger hand (more dominated combos), better blockers and better playability (straight draw). You can't call KQo, AJo and the 3bet is kinda borderline vs early positions...Vs bigger size I think fold is better...Can be different at NL100-NL200...But the rake is lower there...The call is worse there also...The players are better and more aggro (squeeze).

KJo can be used for "value 3bet" , as @Biscuit said , BU vs CO...If HJ have wide range, this will be kinda the same as BU vs CO, "kinda", because you have one more player behind you , compared to BU vs CO, and he is IP...HJ should have 30% + OR range...As "bluff" KJo is just bad imo...You have ATo, Ax, suited "junks" (extremely good playability)...This is only my opinion ofc...Can be wrong. Can be style depended..I am not so aggro, I like to use the showdown value sometime, I think IP this showdown value is more "actual"..Than OOP..From this range up there, If I play at NL25, I am still calling some hands vs such a size. Vs 3x very narrow range for call, more 3bet...Some of the "yellow hands" I will use for 3bet even vs small size...AQo is always a 3bet, because it is off suit...high pocket pairs 3bet, low fold...This chart is just bad, you should call less and use some of the yellow hands for 3bet...

I think this chart will be good at NL2 :f_biggrin:, if you call 65s+ vs small size, fold vs 3x and fold KJo...AJo, KQo 3bet vs small size, fold vs 3x...Also I can't see how A5s is weaker than 65s...For 3bet and call, whatever...

AQs also, 3bet, always..too strong to call even vs UTG...Still can be fold vs 4bet, no problem...I think AQs is yellow there, because many players will call vs 4bet and play for stacks with TP...I have mates, who play NL100-NL500, they do call vs 4bet even with AQo and never fold TP , even deep...But NL100+ is different, the 4bet is more polarized (and should be), more wide there , at NL25 the 4bet is so strong...

I am talking for most of the fields. Pokerstars and don't know about GG, they seems more passive, more fishy...There are some fields, the people are crazy there, even at NL25. 3bet, 4bet all the time, you have 50% expected 3bet, when you OR from UTG. This changes everything...

Also , if you play like that at NL25, you will fold too much, from "GTO perspective"...In many spots. But I think it is not bad, but good...You should fold a lot vs weak players. For max value...Thats the way, they are blind or short sighted...

The "new" 3bet or fold strategy is " designed" like that mainly because of the rake. If you pay less rake, you will have a higher win rate. The second reason is the balance....You have capped range, when you call..And everyone knows that, even some fish...But there are two problems , three actually...
1. You don't have cap at the lower stakes, it is just "theoretical cap"...You should play deep , but this play have other problems..
2. You should have noticeable FE , when you use 3bet.
3. The other players should "care" about this capped calling range, should be aggro...No one really cares at NL10-NL25...

As result with this strategy, "only 3bet", you will lose some of value with hands , which you still can call and the 3bet with those hands will be borderline or even -EV...
You pay more rake :f_biggrin:, because the people just don't like to fold vs 3bet...You don't have good FE...Some of the hands for 3bet will be borderline or -EV. "Borderline" is bad for such a low limit, because you have good expected win rate. This is a waste of time and actually "borderline" at NL25 means -EV...As money per hour...

You should "take the best" from this strategy and not use this at 100%...Imo...If we compared this to the "retro ABC poker", you should call less, 3bet more...Don't use garbage for 3bet, use a linear range...Only good hands...KJo is not a good hand vs MP (HJ)..

And about the highest stakes. Biscuit said something about this. I never played there, I am not gonna lie...If we talk about cash games...But I do have mates, which play there. And seems in field like Pokerstars, the good regs use some kind of "mix strategy", not "3bet or fold", they have call vs OR...In other fields the players are very weak, fishy...And they use just a "normal" strategy, with call, even with open limp...With some weak hands...We can compared this to the live play...And they use mix strategy vs regs (when he OR). Because of the fishes behind...I mean with this "mixed strategy", their range for call is not capped,its "a little bit capped" :f_biggrin:, without AA and KK, this is always a 3bet...

vol- here are some examples what I am talking about

this is just a raise.
PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: 110.01 BB
CO: 98.72 BB
BTN: 99.22 BB
SB: 105.05 BB
Hero (BB): 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has As 5c
fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop : (6 BB, 2 players) 3s 7s Qs
SB bets 2.85 BB, Hero raises to 8.12 BB, fold

Hero wins 11.12 BB

c/rPokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

CO: 126.04 BB
BTN: 198.98 BB
SB: 47.16 BB
Hero (BB): 102.78 BB
UTG: 112.78 BB
MP: 102.08 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Jc Qh
UTG raises to 2.2 BB, MP calls 2.2 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 1.2 BB

Flop : (7.1 BB, 3 players) Ah 7h Jh
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets 3.38 BB, Hero raises to 10.8 BB, fold, fold

Hero wins 13.16 BB

another c/rPokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: 105.8 BB
Hero (BB): 108.63 BB
UTG: 198.87 BB
CO: 289.67 BB
BTN: 102.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kh Qc
fold, CO raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 8 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Flop : (16.5 BB, 2 players) 5h Jh 3h
Hero checks, CO bets 3.9 BB, Hero raises to 16.81 BB, fold

Hero wins 23.09 BB

it prints money