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Live MTT busted out 4th from a call with A5o

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theoP
Joined: 13.06.2023

Hello, I have another hand I would like to share from my live experiences.

Local casino , 110$ buy in, 10$ the rake, 30$ goes to the mystery bounty that day.

We are 4 left and in the money. 4th takes 385, 3rd, 580, 2nd 880 and 1st 1450.
That's the main idea more or less, not the digit-precise numbers.

Blinds are 30k/60k with a 60k ante posted by the BB.
I am sitting on the BB and have ~580k after posting.

The SB next to me is the chip leader (maybe 40 big blinds), a good reg who applies amounts of pressure. I had seen him put people all-in with not great hands, people calling him and he had busted out a few already.
The other 2 players had less chips than me, but not by a lot. Maybe around 400k-450k. I believe I had an edge on them. Those 2 players fold and the SB puts me all in.

I see A5 and I'm certain that I am ahead of his range the majority of the time and I thought I could be ahead even as much as 60% of what he is pushing. Most probable was that he had two cars between an A and a 5. I decided to make a stand and call, I was right, showing me J7o, he hits a straight and we lose.

When I insert the stats in pokerstove and put A5o against his range as loose as to include J7o (50% of hands), I see that A5o is actually a coinflip. If I increase his range to 70%, which I was thinking he could be pushing with, it just goes up to 54%-46%. I guess I was lucky he just had J7, which is 59/41?

He also got a bounty of 300$ from busting me :))

What do you think of my call? Should I have just folded it and waited for a better chance, or for me to be the aggressor? If I had won that hand I would have been in a really good shape to go for the prize and bust out the lesser stacks to get me a big bounty, since the smaller bounties had already been distributed.

Overall it was a fun tournament, thanks in advance.


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10 replies
nsavov
Joined: 24.09.2010

He should be pushing every hand from every position if it's 4 handed, he has 40bb and the other 3 players have 8-10bb and bounties.

If he doesn't push every hand, you should probably fold, because that means you get to push against the shorter guys if he happens to fold before you. If they fold, you chip up from them which is more profitable than winning chips from the chip leader. If they call, you play for their bounties.

If he plays correctly and pushes every hand, I would probably call too, but I am not sure if it's correct. You estimated you have around 60% but even that may not be enough.

You can play around with the free ICM programs like ICMizer and adjust. I think it will want us to call more with hands like QJ and 66+ than low Ax.


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theoP
Joined: 13.06.2023

Ok so first time I use ICMIZER so I am not sure I did everything right. But from custom game I made with the prizes and chip counts it looks like I would need 77+ ATs+ Ajo+ to call any two cards he shoves, which is absolutely crazy to me. If he shoved 75% of his cards I would need to call 88+ Ajs+ AQo. Wow, could that be right?


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nsavov
Joined: 24.09.2010

Well, no way I am folding ATs, that's for sure...

Maybe you didn't choose the right type of tournaments, maybe you didn't use FGS (Future Game Simulation) correctly or you didn't input the right variables, also the calcualtors are not familiar with live tournaments where BB pays all th antes... but the point is - it's not all about making chips in tournaments, it's about investing your chips smartly depending on everyone's stack size. Doubling up against the chip leader is worth less than knocking out a player around your stack depth, especially in a KO.

IDK how much you know about tournaments, but they are so much different than cash games. Watch some free ICM videos anywhere you can if you want to get a better understanding.

GL! :f_drink:


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theoP
Joined: 13.06.2023

It feels more like 66+ A9o+ KJo+ Thanks for the insights.


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SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

Nasty ICM spot for sure. Only with info villain is really aggressive against you as 2nd in chips I would consider calling, but even than A5o is a marginal call against a any 2 range when the 2nd place earns a lot more than 4th in chips.

Cheers,
SDK1987


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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

It's the combination of other players being shorter than you and chip leader being in such commanding lead that will ramp up ICM tax heavily. That will handcuff our hands and force to call really tight range. Which is then reason why chip leader can get on shoving very wide which gets even better for him if there are bounties available as well.

I recommend playing around with stack depths to see how it affects your calling range. E.g. what if you are clearly shortest? What if chip leader has only bit bigger stack than you etc. That will help lot more to get overall feeling for the spot than just checking single stack scenario.


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theoP
Joined: 13.06.2023

Yeah, so for this situation the software says Hero should be calling with 10% of hands.
And the experiments.
While still 2nd in chips but Hero with a shorter stack, the solver still gives a tight calling range but wider than 10%. When Hero's stack goes below the other two players then the calling range goes up to 30%, in addition the range keeps widening as the stack gets shorter. If I had 300k, calling range is 53%..
The interesting thing is that if Villain had a stack of 1000k, A5o would be a +EV call by a hairsplit. If he were a shorter stack than Hero, A5o is a definite call.

Now my call with A5o feels like a gamble and more about ego, giving huge value to the shorter stacks.


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SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

If the chip leader is shorter and you win you have a better change to win the tournement than if you are playing against a huge chip leader. Now you basicly play for 2nd with the other players and losing a flip would be a disaster as 2nd in chips.

It's also smart to read the articles about chip value:
Chip Value (1): The Principle of Diminishing Chip Value
Chip Value (2): The Fundamentals of the Independent Chip Model (ICM)
Chip Value (3): Application of the ICM
Chip Value (4): The Risk Premium Concept


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theoP
Joined: 13.06.2023

Understood. Thanks for the resources.


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AcesMagnet
Joined: 13.06.2023

ICM cinsiderations here is key. Youre +EV to fold because of the massive stack vs the two tiny stacks. You're piggy stuck in the middle. Forcing you to have to be tight as a nun's chuff.

Another one of these BB posts the whole Ante formats. It's so unfair! You've invested so much into the pot already. I hate the sound of this. From what you're describing I can't fault your calling (emotionally, anyway, any rate at least).

It's interesting to see (and has really changed my game) how close it is between the typical ABC-poker hands, and those that you might never have considered playing years ago, poker certainly is a different beast now compared to, for example, the Moneymaker era.

Incidentally, 60/40 isn't a coin flip though - it's a massive edge. A coin flip, technically, is 50/50, though I'll extend it Β±5, though 55/45 is still pushing the definition πŸ˜‚.

Let's not forget that even AA vs a lower pair, the lower should win around 20% of the time.


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