Controversial hand in live MTT - Opinions

Hi Cloudbeast,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com

More information is needed I think.
 Stack sizes of all players at the table — especially those involved in the hand
 How far are we from the money?

BB has 36K in the pot, so calling an EP raise to only 50K means that BB needs to add only slightly less than 1 BB to call.
At the outset of this hand, there are 3.5 BB in the pot — and 3 of them come from one player.
EP bets 4.2 BB — there is now 7.7 BB in the pot.
Now BB only needs to add 4.2 BB to win 11.9 BB
So not possible to fold anything decent especially if BB covers EP by a lot.

I'm not an MTT player, nor a live player, not a hold'em expert, but I sure want to hear what the experts think on this one!

Thanks for the reply and the welcome.

BB had about 140k and EP about 200k.
12 players remaining in the MTT (started with 18 players). 6 players on the table with only EP and BB in the hand.

Hopefully some holdem players will weigh in. I am not sure why this PF call from BB caused such a bust up.

I have moved you're hand to our tournament hand discussion board. There fits it better I think.
If I see it correctly villain in the BB has only around 12bb left and needs to invest 3bb (the big blind and 2bb for the bb ante) this hand. Not sure that's right, because the BB ante of 2bb is huge I think. Normally it's only 1.

That means the BB needs to call a little bit more than 3bb with 3bb invested. If villain would call he/she has less than 6bb behind. That means villian is committed on the flop and that makes the call really marginal. Off course we don't know the paid out structure, but I don't think much more than 4 players gets paid. If I was the BB i would shove or fold and T8s would be a fold I think, but the huge BB ante makes it really tricky I think.

Cheers,
SDK1987

I am not that experienced in tournament play but I will make an effort to give my take.

That BB ante is strange, haven't seen it before but let's go with it. And if the BB is left with 140k after posting the blind and ante, he is left with 11.6bb. So the pot is already 0.5bb + 1bb + 2bb(ante) + 4.2bb(MP's raise) = 7.7bb.
The BB has to call 50000-12000 = 38000 = 3.2bb to win 7.7bb with a marginal drawing hand, probably crushed by EPs range. But the worst is that the pot will be 11bb after the call and the BB left with 8.4bb, committing him.

There's an argument for shoving the T8s, especially if there's a read on the EP (there's already 66% of the BB's stack in the pot), but it looks like a clear fold preflop.

I would argue that the EP could have just shoved AJ preflop with only 6 players on the table and 20% of his stack in the pot uncontested.

With 12/18 left, I think 4 go into the money, so ICM isn't much of a consideration.

I disagree that it's strictly a shove or fold situation. I don't think EP would ever fold anything he opens and we are probably never ahead. Calling T8s is for sure better than shoving. You will have to go with your hand on a lot of flops, but you will save half your stack on flops like 234m, 445, AK5

Is it better than folding though... I think fold is marginally better, but a call is hardly something controversial unless it's an ICM spot. Folding loses you like 25% of your stack after all...

Seems interesting. I'm not a fan of investing more than half of my stack and fold post-flop. Indeed fold equity should be 0 for sure.

EDIT:Just noticed you say there is a 2bb Ante as well? That changes things, as now he's got 3bb in the middle already. So I think he's calling with at least 40% of hands, almost any two here!

Originally posted by Cloudbeast
...live MTT. Here is the play;
Blinds: 6000/12000
BB Ante: X2 BB (24000)
Pre flop: Early position bets 50 000 PF with AJ off. BB calls with 10/8 s.
...
Would the PF call be considered a poor call by BB? In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the call in that position. Open to opinions.

The thing about modern day online poker is that almost (if not) all the sites are stock full of bells & whistles, features that just did not exist back when I was a regular at the digital table. Some may be gimmicks to appeal to the recreational player, whilst others, your built in HUD, are virtually essential and we wouldn't dream of turning back the clock on these.

Switch chip display!
One of the first things I did when returning to online poker is turn on the "display chips as blinds" option. It takes a brief moment to get used to, but now I just wouldn't go back! I freaked out the other day in an MTT final table when I accidentally clicked my chips and saw a bet for 2.5million chips, until I clicked again and it said "2.5bb" - PHEW! I very rarely need to check the current/next blind values because I've got an instant visual numerical reference of how many blinds are there in front of me, the pot, and everyone else at the table.

My answer
So let's turn this from chips into blinds, and suddenly its not such a weird call. You can instantly see how big a call it was in relation to the pot, to the stacks in play. (Although you neglect to say what stack size everyone had, let's just convert what we've got)

Big blind is 12k
50k opener - just under 4.2bb (it's 4.166recurring)
For the big blind to call, that's 3.2bb. Interesting side point, this seems larger than the standard opening bet at GGPoker, what site is this? Folks will open for 2-3bb, anything over 4bb is considered fishy!

Depending on stack size, the larger suited connectors like T♦8♦ are within my defending range, although I would prefer one-gappers to two-gappers. Also, I'm wary of calling bigger opening bets from UTG so that also affects my defending range from the BB.

If he's got less than 10bb, I question this call completely. It's shove or fold. Less than 15bb, it's a mandatory fold from me. Above 50bb and its pretty much a standard call! See, stack size (and opponents) is very important. If the opponent has 10bb or less, then I'm immediately at edge - he's got a high pair and wants a call, why hasn't he shoved? He's hoping nobody noticed his stack size, and bet a little bit higher than normal just to build the pot he thinks is already his. Stack sizes are key! Never forget to mention them 😊.

I'm questioning this ambiguous "BB Ante 2BB" as the OP states. Is this an Ante that the big blind has paid, as others have interpreted it as? Which sounds weird. Or do you mean that this is how much collected from everyone via their Ante (eg the pot size, not counting small & big blinds, before hand is dealt). Which sounds more realistic.

It's not a site, it's live tournament. Live tournaments switched to the BB paying all the antes because it makes it way easier for the dealer to track who's gotta pay what preflop.

For some reason, OP played in a tournament where the ante is not 1BB but 2BBs, making the BB put a total of 3BB preflop.

Originally posted by nsavov
It's not a site, it's live tournament. Live tournaments switched to the BB paying all the antes because it makes it way easier for the dealer to track who's gotta pay what preflop.

For some reason, OP played in a tournament where the ante is not 1BB but 2BBs, making the BB put a total of 3BB preflop.

Ahh okay, thanks - that makes sense! Although I think I'd end up hating having to be the one to post first when the blinds go up and it being even more expensive and feel like the tournament is conspiring against me even more than usual 😂

That makes this hand also so interesting. I think it's unfair that the BB needs to invest 6 times more than the SB. The difference of play is huge if you compare it with online when every player is paying the ante.

Well, I personally don't like it also, but it is fair. Everyone gets to be on the BB. It just creates more interesting dynamics:

More focus on FGS - shoving looser UTG when ~10bb.

Playing a little tighter from other positions, because BB should be calling more and/or raising/shoving more.

Raising bigger sizes because BB shouldn't be folding much if he gets good odds - he loses 200bb/100 instead of 110 if he folds. So, if a hand loses him 180bb/100 if defended, it should be defended.

Maybe theoretically less limping and more deeper shoving from the SB because BB should be willing to fight for this hand more than any other position.

I like new rules that shake up the same old boring GTO thinking and punishes players that don't bother changing things up. I just don't like this particular rule because it makes the game effectively shallower and it rewards tanking even more.