[Closed] Why SSS doesn't work.

Originally posted by Deckard33
Poker is a game of skill and luck. You can't be lucky using SSS PreFlop as you nearly always have the best of it and when you get your chips in.

Villan will either fold worse hand, call with slightly worse or much worse hand like low pair or sc's. You should win and will most of the time or he might get lucky which will also happen regularly.

The only players who can get lucky, varience I think you call it for some reason, are people not playing SSS. If the only luck you can expect in a poker game is even or bad luck you have a losing stragrgy.

Flawed argument dude, because:

Luck -> zero when #hands -> infinity thus only skill remain and you make money if:

Your skill > Opponents skill - rake

The number hands where luck is very small is a lot tho...but 100k hands should be enough.

Does this guy actually have any hard facts to back up his opinion which seems to be largely based on his emotional response? Has he worked out the stats? What sort of sample size is he basing his predictions on?

Until he decides to look at it quantitatively then it is a lost cause to try and prove him wrong, he has already made a decision based on emotion.

Phil I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get your chips in when you're ahead but if you only ever get your chips in when you're ahead you can only get the win your cards deserve or lose to a worse hand due to bad luck, well the statisically less likely outcome. You can not get "lucky" but can get unlucky.

No hard facts phpps but just what i consider to be a logical conclusion. A poster said he has +EV pre flop which might supply the hard facts but I'm fairly sure it will be by applying "modified" SSS which changes the parameters of my assertion.

Thanks for your post Termi8r but can you elaborate, to my understanding of basic SSS there is no skill what so ever, just wait for very specific hands and raising, re-raising all in.

Originally posted by Deckard33
You can not get "lucky" but can get unlucky.

do you really not see how this is the most retarded thing (to think) ever?
Besides the fact that it's impossible to be in a situation where you can be "unlucky" but not "lucky" (of course people might argue different interpretations of those words, so they're not quite right, but whatever), consider this: winning with AA vs KK is lucky. do you see why?

Cause if you don't, you should really just delete all your posts about you "reasoning logically" and apologise to people who've taken the time to try and answer seriously (it's ok, no need to include me in that group). Actually, do that either way. Then go play some real poker that requires real skill, since it seems like such a big deal to you.

Originally posted by Deckard33
you can only get the win your cards deserve or lose to a worse hand due to bad luck

Actually, you never get the winnings your cards "deserve", you either get more than they "deserve" or less. Never exactly what they deserve, unless your opponent is drawing dead... and that never happens PF.

Maybe the phrases I've used are not quite correct. By deserve I simply mean the most statistically likely outcome actually occurs.

Nice attitude swiss, it's you who can't grasp the concept and reasonably argue it out, I guess you just read articles, from whatever sourse, and never try any original thinking. The example you give perfect illistrates what I'm saying AA v KK, AA wins is likely (it deserves the win, wrong term but you should understand what I mean unless you deliberatly don't want to).

Can you tell me why I'm wrong. If you always have superior holdings to your oppo. when you enter a pot, varience can only work negitively for you and occasionally positive for him. As discussed there is no skill in basic SSS so you can't out play anyone and you can't get lucky, losing strategy.

I play real poker most evenings but thanks for the recommendation, and yes I like to have to face dilemas that might not be solved by referance to a chart. Of course, I apologise to anyone who took the time to post a reply including you swiss

Originally posted by Deckard33
Can you tell me why I'm wrong. If you always have superior holdings to your oppo. when you enter a pot, varience can only work negitively for you and occasionally positive for him. As discussed there is no skill in basic SSS so you can't out play anyone and you can't get lucky, losing strategy.

If those are actually your arguments to prove that SSS is a losing strategy, you should quit poker right now because you fail at elementary logic.

Ok Immagine that you go all in with AA against 77 a thousand times. You can't get lucky and your opponent will get "lucky 200 times at average. In the end you still win 80% of the money. And if you are more unlucky you will win 60% for example.

Your opponent on the other hand can get "lucky" each time. Usually he will get just 20% of the money and if he will be luckier he will win even 40%.

So even him getting lucky will loose him money and the goal is not to get lucky but to win money.

Originally posted by mafaz
yep im buying in with 20BB but only leave when blinds reaches me. If i double up i buy in to full stack and play BSS basicly set mining most of the time. Or when i see a huge fish

Yep you modify SSS. You limp more, complete on sb mostly you make money from other very very tight players. Steal sometimes even from MP3 or MP2 with a decent hand when players behind you are very tight and you know they will respect your raise. You resteal more. Choose spots when to contibet and when not to. Basicly using stats is a key for success.
Table selection is also important. I actually only play with maximum 1 shorstacker at a table. If there is more i dont even join it. I play against 2 shorties if they both are on my left. If there is 1 shortie and some guy is sitting out i leave the table most of the time also.
Also using reraise ranges from this article Shortstack-Strategy: Adjusting the reraise-ranges is good. Well basicly you use every trick in the book. All these things increase your BB/100 by little.

I agree that basic SSS sucks without using stats and other things. But advanced SSS is good. And you can nearly reach an average BB/100 a bigstacker makes or even better while risking less.

+1 ♠_biggrin:

Originally posted by Deckard33

Originally posted by alejandrosh

Originally posted by Deckard33
Poker is a game of skill and luck. You can't be lucky using SSS PreFlop as you nearly always have the best of it and when you get your chips in.

wat?

Read it slowly, if you are still struggling let me know

I could explain what I mean a little clearer but I think it would be good for you to try and figure this difficult concept out all by yourself.

please explain , the way I understand this concept is:

- I have a better hand when my chips go in , meaning my equity is > 50%
- my EV is > 0 meaning I'm expected to win
- I'm expected to win so I'm expected to lose (losing strategy)

I need help

Friday evening
NL 0.5/1 9max
: (40$) (FRANCE ! ) 2 7 raises to 2$
(70$) FOLDS
(50$) FOLDS
♠_confused: (100) FOLDS
(10$) FOLDS
♠_confused: (120$): A A :heart:(raises to 6$)
: RAISES 38$ and is all in
♠_love: CALLS !

FLOP: 2 2 7
: AHAHAHAH HAHAHAH AHAHAH !
♠_cry: :
Turn : 9
: :))))))))
River: A
Fu*** YOU ! you fu**ing LUCKER ! SCREW THIS ! you RETARD! HOW YOU CAN CALL THAT AND GET LUCKY????? fuc* THIS SSS ! i only get bad beats ! FU**************** this shit it's RIGGED ! sss is only for fuc* LUCKERS !
♠_o: : Ship it !
HU FOR ROLLS????????????????
♠_biggrin: ok limit?
: Not now fish ! next Friday ! im to busy atm ..so keep your tiny roll for the moment
♠_frown:
( CASHIER/ BALANCE 0.00 $ USD)

Originally posted by NiekamNeidomu
Friday evening
NL 0.5/1 9max
: (40$) (FRANCE ! ) 2 7 raises to 2$
(70$) FOLDS
(50$) FOLDS
♠_confused: (100) FOLDS
(10$) FOLDS
♠_confused: (120$): A A :heart:(raises to 6$)
: RAISES 38$ and is all in
♠_love: CALLS !

FLOP: 2 2 7 : AHAHAHAH HAHAHAH AHAHAH !
♠_cry: :
Turn : 9 : :))))))))
River: A Fu*** YOU ! you fu**ing LUCKER ! SCREW THIS ! you RETARD! HOW YOU CAN CALL THAT AND GET LUCKY????? fuc* THIS SSS ! i only get bad beats ! FU**************** this shit it's RIGGED ! sss is only for fuc* LUCKERS !
♠_o: : Ship it !
HU FOR ROLLS????????????????
♠_biggrin: ok limit?
: Not now fish ! next Friday ! im to busy atm ..so keep your tiny roll for the moment
♠_frown:
( CASHIER/ BALANCE 0.00 $ USD)

A BIG LOL here ♦

What does it have to do with the discussion?

Newsflash guys I didn't think I was right about this but had a nagging feeling there is a major leak in SSS and nobody seems to be able to address it.

What I'm hearing is SSS works if you change it, ie. don't use it.

Thanks RahXephon1 for trying to help. When you do finally get a premium hand in using SSS it will have cost XBB, then you need callers factorX, then you need your superior holdings to win generally 60% to 80%.

You can't use skill with SSS or you're not using strict SSS. You can only win if you get callers and don't get cracked, so it's only the supposed statistical advantage of SSS that makes it profitable, I really don't think so.

Lets go to a third world country pay fifty kids minimum wage to grind 20 tables each after a short course in SSS, we'll be millionaires I tell ya.

By the way this is certainly not an attack on PS which I think is a great site. The tourney and SnG articles have really helped my game.

But I think SSS is a bit cynical giving beginers the expectation of making money when I'm sure less that 50% do (no hard facts sorry but if any are available lets see them). You would be better off playing red or black on roulette except for the fact SSS is a good training ground and should be treated as such. If you want to make money you MUST modify, ie. don't use it.

Even playing SSS you go often all-in with worse hand. There you get, as you say, lucky. The basic handrange is much wider than JJ+ and AK.

Originally posted by Deckard33
Can you tell me why I'm wrong. If you always have superior holdings to your oppo. when you enter a pot, varience can only work negitively for you and occasionally positive for him.

Faye explained it *just* after my post, but whatever, let's give this another shot:

say you shove AA vs someone's KK, you don't "deserve" to win. You have 80% equity. Which means that if you win, you'll have made more than your expected value. You'd get 100% of the pot when you should only get 80% of it. In other words, you sucked out. Not for an entire stack, but still, you "got lucky". You don't need the worst hand for that, see?

Thanks swiss I do get it, that makes sense.

Eg. you've got AA in the SB, many limpers, even if you go all in with your small stack with one caller everyone has the odds to call a you and AA will probably lose even though you have the best hand. No fold equity, no spec hands, no skill, no bluffs, no conti bets, few starting hands, maybe limited callers, no profit. I still say strict SSS is not profitable and you should look behind the mirror.

Lets imagine a site that gives away $50 dollars to play poker but who earns money from rake back. Would the site recommend playing one $50 Sng where with your varience (ha I didn't say luck) you have a fair chance of making some money, or would they recommend grinding away your stack over hours and hours and recoup a certain percentage from losing players capital and those who are lucky enough to win and eventually work out they better change strategy or bust will keep paying them indefinately.

SSS is a good training ground and should be treated as such. If you want to make money you MUST modify, ie. don't use it.

Its Still SSS but as you say its modified. Also called ADVANCED SSS

Fair enough, maybe I could say unless you modify, SSS in not profitable.

Lets see if Swiss will bite again. You enter a pot with more than 50% equity so your oppo. has less than 50% equity you have the best hand at that point. You can keep the best hand or lose with it, oppo. can lose with the worst hand or win with it. Only he can improve his position.

Originally posted by Deckard33
Fair enough, maybe I could say unless you modify, SSS in not profitable.

Lets see if Swiss will bite again. You enter a pot with more than 50% equity so your oppo. has less than 50% equity you have the best hand at that point. You can keep the best hand or lose with it, oppo. can lose with the worst hand or win with it. Only he can improve his position.

LOL now that was the pearl of all this .. You know what are the odds of throwing a 6 on a dice ? Off course 1:1 - it falls or it does not fall, right ♦ ? Sounds stupid ? Well that was the logic you just used sir

BTW. To the point - If you really want to prove that SSS is not profitable it is easy, but you would need to invest quite a bit of time -> create a computer simulations of millions of hands as they would be played and see ..