[Closed] JJ T22 flop

The check/minraise looks very strong. It usually is. Hard to fold, but you will often be behind to badly played hands which contain a 2, slowplayed overpairs, or sets. A check/raise standard or check/shove is much easier to read as sometimes weaker TP hands. Check/minraises make my heart sink to my stomach.

I think, in general, that unless we have reads villain is a strong player it's ok to go broke here. Often enough he has a bare Ten in his hand and doesn't believe you have anything. (Or a lower pocket pair, as you say).

I think a 2 is pretty unlikely. A set of tens is possible, but still unlikely given all the other possible holdings.

However, if we like our hand well enough to go broke here, I think we'd do better to just call the minraise. We don't have to protect, so we are wahead,wbehind here. Shoving the flop only isolates ourselves against the better hands and removes from villain the chance to bet his weaker hands again on the Turn.

Concerning JJ, my feeling is that (in the absence of solid reads) we usually need to be willing to get it in on flops without overcards. More often than not we do actually have overcards to deal with - and then we certainly need to be cautious; so when we don't it seems too cautious not to trust our overpair. Put another way, If we don't generally trust our overpair, I feel there's almost no point raising JJ in the first place. Grateful for other's views on this, though.

absolute standard. nh.

I can't fold here unless I have tons of reads on the guy.

My point is about the check/minraise line, which is taken by fishy villains mostly.

In my experience over the last couple of years, it means one of two things.

1. A fish playing badly with a weak hand, which he thinks is strong, eg, TPTK type hands, occasionally a stupid bluff.

2. A fish playing badly with a monster.

It is as much as 80% case 2.

Rarely will you see a strong player at these levels check/minraising. That kind of stuff is for regs trying to outlevel each other. Low stakes fish are just looking for value, and using all the wrong lines to get it. Unfortunately, when we fail to see that, they do get it.

I have been listening to Somnius talk about poker, and he says there are three skills a poker player needs to develop to be successful. They are attention, memory and intuition.

There has to be a point at which we get beyond what is absolutely standard, to consider that the edges are not standard at all. If intuition is one of the three major skills a good poker player needs, these situations really require the application of that.

If this was a hand which required standard response, it wouldn't be posted in this thread.

By all means get it in here if you think that is a +ev move overall. When I see a fish who limp/calls preflop, then check/minraises on this flop, my gut instinct, my intuition, tells me my hand is trash.

I'm folding, and keeping 20BB to get him with later.

Well, I can't argue with the logic of your post, aciddrop. And a lot of what you say is I'm sure vital for beating the higher stakes. The problem is that we want to find a line that maximises value against all opponents we might find ourselves against - not just a certain type. And the reality is that many of us are multitabling and not able always to get to the depth of thinking required to maximise value against every type of player.

You can see that if we fold every time (or even 80% of the time) we get check-minraised we are going to lose a lot of value. And further, if we're seen doing this, we become immediately exploitable by any thinking reg.

Anyway, interested in coach's views. I still like the line where we call rather than shove, but hey ho...

Yes, if you are going to play, I agree with the call.

A shove will only fold out bluffs, and you can get in on any turn.

I would play it the same way on such a dry board.