[Closed] PLO600sh KK66ss ip

Wow this is a tough one.

One of the problems here is that we can establish he doesn't have the nuts, due to not raising the flop, nobody would slow play the nuts against the preflop aggressor this way unless they have nut straight AND nut flush draw.
But even so that we have established he wont have the nuts, he can still have us beat. TT and 88 are both very real holdings along with the usual nut flush draw/straight wrap type of hands.

My line on the turn here would most likely be bet/fold. But we have to bet big, so $100. It's a reverse freeroll situation for us on the turn which is why we have to bet. If we check then all the flush draws & straight draws in his range take a free card which is terrible. And all the hands that beat us, the nuts plus top and middle set will bet once we have checked.
So we bet not because it's a great idea, but because its better than the other option of checking.
If we bet $100 on the turn and get pot raised then its an easy fold as we're not getting pot odds to call. Because our turn bet is so big, people are unlikely to semi bluff raise since we're showing strength. If we were to bet less we would be showing our weakness (who bets small with the nuts when 2 flush draws are showing?) and likely find ourselves raised by aggro players.

Originally posted by Ribbo
One of the problems here is that we can establish he doesn't have the nuts, due to not raising the flop, nobody would slow play the nuts against the preflop aggressor this way unless they have nut straight AND nut flush draw.

Isn´t it better to play nuts + FD faster on the flop than only the nuts?

Originally posted by 8412king

Originally posted by Ribbo
One of the problems here is that we can establish he doesn't have the nuts, due to not raising the flop, nobody would slow play the nuts against the preflop aggressor this way unless they have nut straight AND nut flush draw.

Isn´t it better to play nuts + FD faster on the flop than only the nuts?

What you can do with the nuts and flush draw is try to win money off the complete range of your opponents. So we can make a standard cbet on the flop (or if not the aggressor a check call float or check raise depending on our image and villains turn frequency betting.)

Let's say the flop is T97 and we have the nuts plus nut flush draw. We raised preflop and were called by the button. In this case what we're looking to do is play our hand in such a way that we get money from the complete range of hands button holds.

So if there is $40 in the pot on the flop, we make a standard weak cbet of $18. Opponents will often float this bet in the hope of picking it up on the turn. If they fold to these bets too much they will be exploited.

If villain has a big hand, he will raise and we can 3 bet shove, so all the money goes in.

However by making a smallish bet, we balance the times we're cbetting with big pairs or a nut flush draw on this flop and we also get calls from hands that would otherwise fold to a big bet which include button floats.

So the turn comes a blank 2. We were called on the flop and now check the flop. At this point if villain has a medium strength hand such as middle set, or non nut straight he will bet 100% as he is sure we don't have the nuts.
Players who float will also bet this turn 100% where as if we bet into them, they will fold so we make money from the complete range of opponents holding rather than just the times they have strong hands and want to stack off (which will still happen by taking this betting line)

Overall I find this to be a more profitable line to take out of position, in position if checked to obviously we have to bet 100% of the time, but we don't have to bet big, since villains big hands stack off all the time but the times he doesn't, he can't risk folding too much to these smaller bets as it becomes exploitable so he might OOP float or check raise bluff where he would fold to a big bet 100%.

This is a line you can only take with nuts + nut redraw where you are not vulnerable and often have the pot locked up vs opponents range.

Hope this helps explain my thought pattern.

So what about the only nuts oop? Some lines can be: 1 bet bet bet 2. bet check-raise safe turn 3. check-call check-raise safe turn 4. check- call donk any turn 5. bet check-call even safe turns check-raise safe river.

With line 3 and 5 we can turn our hand into a bluff if we think it is good option. I like 5 becuse we can do a lot on the river and it makes it hard for the opponent to read our hand.

Originally posted by 8412king
So what about the only nuts oop? Some lines can be: 1 bet bet bet 2. bet check-raise safe turn 3. check-call check-raise safe turn 4. check- call donk any turn 5. bet check-call even safe turns check-raise safe river.

With line 3 and 5 we can turn our hand into a bluff if we think it is good option. I like 5 becuse we can do a lot on the river and it makes it hard for the opponent to read our hand.

If we are the preflop aggressor I like the standard half pot flop cbet, then full pot turn blank if it puts us close to all in, or go for check raise if deeper. Another option would be to bet even smaller on the turn to get a raise out of thinking players who see it as a blocking bet.

All of this and more is going to be mentioned in part 1 of an upcoming PLO advanced video on betting patterns.

If we have a straight on a flushing board, and we get raised on the flop, I like calling and betting all turns, even ones where board pairs or flush hits, to get folds sometimes from hands that would otherwise shove on the flop and because we're stacking off 100% of the time on the flop anyway it's gives us more equity.

so in villian's spot , not being the agressor preflop what's your line with a hand like 4579 no flushdraw?

Originally posted by alejandrosh
so in villian's spot , not being the agressor preflop what's your line with a hand like 4579 no flushdraw?

Depends how often and much the guy cbets. If he always cbets I check call flop/donk all turns and check raise blank rivers (since we only make money on the river from busted draws bluffing, all made hands shove turn since our turn line looks weak).

A flop check raise is almost always not in my range on the flop unless it obviously puts me close to all in. ♠_cool:

I try to rephrase what one of the worlds best said to one of those spots:

slowplaying does make much more sense with plain nuts, slowplaying nuts+redraws is a MUST push on this flop.

Why? Pushing the flop with great redraws gives you a spot where you are waaaaay ahead vs the AI range of the opponent. If it is compared to the plain nutstraight, there is not much value in trying to get it in on the flop.. the deeper the worse

Hope the point is clear

Originally posted by tmy

slowplaying does make much more sense with plain nuts, slowplaying nuts+redraws is a MUST push on this flop.

But doing this loses us money against the complete range of opponents hands and also unbalances our range. More often than not when we hold nuts + redraw opponent has absolutely nothing. We can take a line that has a chance of winning money vs opponents who have nothing (and will bluff) whilst still allowing us to get all in should opponent have a hand.
Just simply saying you should always shove is leaving money on the table and polarizing our range. If we never take a slower line with nuts+redraw smart players can just float us and bet us off a hand every time we do check.

i think flatting a bare 79 cannot be ruled out.
checking back is not bad, bet/call is also fine vs certain opponents.
(vs a bad maniac,I bet call there)